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Reading this article makes me feel very angry, especially as I look at the authors' background. There are so many things we can do, and these people are tellin

Reading this article makes me feel very angry, especially as I look at the authors' background. There are so many things we can do, and these people are telling us that "the winner" is driving brand new fuel efficient cars, hot off the assembly line? What about biking? Walking? What about changing our habits so as not to rely as much on cars in the first place. How about not driving? There are people who don't drive at all, you could become one of them. What would it take? How about some gardening? Plant a raspberry bush or a tree. If everyone planted a tree, do you know how many trees that would be? Billions of new trees. It wouldn't be very difficult. It would be much more affordable than buying a brand new electric vehicle.

ThomPete 10y ago
Not driving is not an option in many cases. Starting to bike doesn't solve climate change problems. Not sure how you would plant a raspberry tree in a New York apartment. There is very little the normal person can do about climate change without radically changing the way they live their lives and thats just not an option for most people.
- macawfish 10y ago
  Well the person in New York has the luxury of decent public transportation. And the person who needs to drive, presumably they live in a suburb or a place with a yard, and they could plant 10 raspberry bushes. Come on! Enough with the excuses! It's getting me down! I'm not saying that people should go and sabotage themselves. I'm saying that there are lots of different things that different people can do to upset this situation. A big one for me is not buying new if at all possible. That goes for computers, cell phones, cars, clothes, etc.
  - ThomPete 10y ago
    There are many other reasons why people need to drive than them working in the suburbs and globally even more reasons why biking in a city is far from enough (Just look at some Chinese cities) The thing is that if you really were to change your life for it to have an effect we wouldn't do it. Just the threat to reliable food supply is enough to make most people accept things as they are. There are two things you can do which are the only rational things to do. 1) Invent non-polluting, technical solutions that either produce, at scale, enough energy to replace existing solutions and which are easy to implement 2) Prepare for the consequence of climate change and find solutions to help that. Thats what you can do. Shouting on FB, Twitter or HN doesn't help anyone.
    - macawfish 10y ago
      "There are two things you can do which are the only rational things to do." I think those are the two things that you can rationally do! But not everyone is you. I think that your focus on technical and engineering solutions is actually a "one finger points three point back" kind of situation. I think that you are probably capable in those solutions, and I encourage you to take them as strengths, not as the only solutions possible. Here's an example, one that comes to mind, of another skillset that's going to be valuable in times to come: mediation. I live in Minnesota, where it's very cold in the winter (gets down to -30 to -40 F) and very hot in the summer (gets up to 100 to 105 F of humid heat every year). I see the effects of heat. People get violent, impatient, antsy. Stuff comes out. Pots boil over. There are is quality research into these correlations (http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/01/opinion/sunday/weather-and-violence.html http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/01/opinion/sunday/weather-and...), so it's not just anecdotal. When times get hot around here, what we need is conversation, patience, spiritual introspection, therapies, caring people. We are going to need people with good leadership, with soft skills, who have the ability to motivate people, to guide people out of conflict, to model what's possible. Artists, parents, teachers, even just plain old solid friends who hold people together. Okay, I'm not arguing that these are "the solutions to climate change". What I'm arguing is that they are necessary pieces of the puzzle! "The thing is that if you really were to change your life for it to have an effect we wouldn't do it. Just the threat to reliable food supply is enough to make most people accept things as they are." I've seen people change so drastically over the course of one lifetime, because they had to in order to survive. I've seen my religiously conservative people close to me go from being homophobic and anti-drug to being open minded and hearted. I've seen my somebody go from seriously flailing (with chronic substance issues, suicidal thoughts, body image struggles, etc) to being one of the most kick ass moms I know in 1 year flat. Don't underestimate! "When the spirit says move, move". And people will move. P.S. I'm planning on building a web app to help people do interactively plan companion planting and permaculture gardens. If you're interested I'll let you know when I put up the source. I'll probably post it on here either way.
      - ThomPete 10y ago
        No i cant even do any of that and thats the point. Instead of lulling people into the believe that human culture on its own can change things perhaps the time was better spent on the things that actually help. You havent provided anything but an emotional argument that culture can solve this, nor is there any evidence in history which points to this. Technological progress brought us in this situation, technological progress can get us out of it. The problem is not the individual consumer but the whole system that supports them and that wont be going anywhere as most people dont have the luxury of spending time planting or meditating. Anecdotes on people changing is not anything but a great story. Of course people change but your argument need them to change in exactly the same way which is exactly the wrong way to understand humans. We aren't rational agents.
  - mpfundstein 10y ago
    Couldn't agree more. I cycle 30 km every day to work and back. When I was a student, I cycled 40km every to Uni and back. You just have to get used to it. While I own a car, I use it maybe only once per month. To get some wood or transport some things from the IKEA. I have to admit, I live in Amsterdam, so the infrastructure for cycling is great.
- jdavis703 10y ago
  It's funny, I have a lime tree and fig tree in my apartment, along with some other plants. Even if not driving is not an option, there's always carpooling which should approximately halve the impact of driving alone. We can either wait for climate change to disrupt our lives, or we can disrupt climate change.
  - ThomPete 10y ago
    what about just preparing for the consequences of climate change.
    - jcoffland 10y ago
      We could practice by colonizing Venus.
- exergy 10y ago
  Forgive me for the forthcoming rant, this is not a slight at you, but I really dislike the kind of attitude that you are projecting here. Al Gore famously said in his documentary that a lot of people go from Denial to Despair without pausing at the middle step of Doing Something about it. Biking definitely can solve climate change. Seems to me that people simply do not get it through their heads that climate change starts with what they expect out of life. As long as everyone wants to drive an SUV or a fucking pickup truck because it is "safe", live 25 miles from work, own a new smartphone every two years, have a perfectly manicured front and back yard etc., we are all fucked. For too many people, climate change is a "their" problem: * Wind turbines? Sure, just not in my backyard because it spoils my fucking view. * Nuclear reactors? Hmm, maybe, but definitely not in my state, and preferably not in my country. * Not travelling to exotic locations every holiday, and instead going on local hikes a bit more? No way! * Give up owning a new smartphone every two years? Dead on Arrival. * Wearing a sweater indoors in the winter instead of constant 25 deg C temperature indoors and 20 minute hot showers? Go fuck yourself. No, but look! I installed a Nest thermostat, so the do-gooder halo around my head is glowing bright! * Biking to work? I can't! Live too far from home this and sweaty at work that. Nothing but excuses. And wait! Is this uber-consumeristic lifestyle making me happier? No?! How is that possible? Climate change is NOT a problem that more technology can solve. It is a sociological problem. A problem of what people expect out of life. As long as people keep thinking it's the politicians at fault and they don't owe anyone a damn thing, well, we'll keep on keeping on with business as usual. And you know what business as usual is? We haven't even started decreasing the rate of CO2 increase, what to talk of a zero emission civilization. Sorry this is incoherent and comes across as a jab at you. It's not. It's just me expressing my frustration as an engineer. I hate that the layperson is convinced that it is engineering that will solve climate change, and That Technology to cure us of all ails is just around the corner. It's not. We need to stop fucking raiding this planet.
  - ThomPete 10y ago
    thats ok i can take it but what you dont seem to get is that we are humans not systems and thus wont be making the changes any other way than through technology. you are basically asking humans not to be human which i believe is a common engineering blind spot :) dont hate the players hate the game.
- jcoffland 10y ago
  Not driving is always an option. What if fuel cost $10,000 a gallon? Would you still drive? No, you'd figure something else out. You would convince your boss to let you telecommute, you'd take the train, bike or walk. Or you would find another job.
  - ThomPete 10y ago
    thats the thing though fuel would never be regulated to cost $10k a gallon the economy would get killed along with the political careers of those who voted it through.
    - jcoffland 10y ago
      That's not the point. Cars are optional. The question is, is giving them up worth the cost?
      - ThomPete 10y ago
        Cars are not optional for most people. They dont just buy them for fun, especially not in china, india and large part of europe. So the answer is no its not worth the cost.
        jcoffland 10y ago
        And if the cost is that the planet is going to heat up like Venus within the next 100 years?
- DrScump 10y ago
  Not sure how you would plant a raspberry tree in a New York apartment. Buying a brand new fuel efficient car is generally suboptimal for a NYC apartment dweller as well.
maxerickson 10y ago
Devoting new land to forest is the important bit. Trees have been planting trees for a while now. I wouldn't be terribly surprised if all the driving around people do on Arbor Day makes the direct effect negative.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]

ThomPete 10y ago

Not driving is not an option in many cases. Starting to bike doesn't solve climate change problems. Not sure how you would plant a raspberry tree in a New York apartment. There is very little the normal person can do about climate change without radically changing the way they live their lives and thats just not an option for most people.

macawfish 10y ago
Well the person in New York has the luxury of decent public transportation. And the person who needs to drive, presumably they live in a suburb or a place with a yard, and they could plant 10 raspberry bushes. Come on! Enough with the excuses! It's getting me down! I'm not saying that people should go and sabotage themselves. I'm saying that there are lots of different things that different people can do to upset this situation. A big one for me is not buying new if at all possible. That goes for computers, cell phones, cars, clothes, etc.
- ThomPete 10y ago
  There are many other reasons why people need to drive than them working in the suburbs and globally even more reasons why biking in a city is far from enough (Just look at some Chinese cities) The thing is that if you really were to change your life for it to have an effect we wouldn't do it. Just the threat to reliable food supply is enough to make most people accept things as they are. There are two things you can do which are the only rational things to do. 1) Invent non-polluting, technical solutions that either produce, at scale, enough energy to replace existing solutions and which are easy to implement 2) Prepare for the consequence of climate change and find solutions to help that. Thats what you can do. Shouting on FB, Twitter or HN doesn't help anyone.
  - macawfish 10y ago
    "There are two things you can do which are the only rational things to do." I think those are the two things that you can rationally do! But not everyone is you. I think that your focus on technical and engineering solutions is actually a "one finger points three point back" kind of situation. I think that you are probably capable in those solutions, and I encourage you to take them as strengths, not as the only solutions possible. Here's an example, one that comes to mind, of another skillset that's going to be valuable in times to come: mediation. I live in Minnesota, where it's very cold in the winter (gets down to -30 to -40 F) and very hot in the summer (gets up to 100 to 105 F of humid heat every year). I see the effects of heat. People get violent, impatient, antsy. Stuff comes out. Pots boil over. There are is quality research into these correlations (http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/01/opinion/sunday/weather-and-violence.html http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/01/opinion/sunday/weather-and...), so it's not just anecdotal. When times get hot around here, what we need is conversation, patience, spiritual introspection, therapies, caring people. We are going to need people with good leadership, with soft skills, who have the ability to motivate people, to guide people out of conflict, to model what's possible. Artists, parents, teachers, even just plain old solid friends who hold people together. Okay, I'm not arguing that these are "the solutions to climate change". What I'm arguing is that they are necessary pieces of the puzzle! "The thing is that if you really were to change your life for it to have an effect we wouldn't do it. Just the threat to reliable food supply is enough to make most people accept things as they are." I've seen people change so drastically over the course of one lifetime, because they had to in order to survive. I've seen my religiously conservative people close to me go from being homophobic and anti-drug to being open minded and hearted. I've seen my somebody go from seriously flailing (with chronic substance issues, suicidal thoughts, body image struggles, etc) to being one of the most kick ass moms I know in 1 year flat. Don't underestimate! "When the spirit says move, move". And people will move. P.S. I'm planning on building a web app to help people do interactively plan companion planting and permaculture gardens. If you're interested I'll let you know when I put up the source. I'll probably post it on here either way.
    - ThomPete 10y ago
      No i cant even do any of that and thats the point. Instead of lulling people into the believe that human culture on its own can change things perhaps the time was better spent on the things that actually help. You havent provided anything but an emotional argument that culture can solve this, nor is there any evidence in history which points to this. Technological progress brought us in this situation, technological progress can get us out of it. The problem is not the individual consumer but the whole system that supports them and that wont be going anywhere as most people dont have the luxury of spending time planting or meditating. Anecdotes on people changing is not anything but a great story. Of course people change but your argument need them to change in exactly the same way which is exactly the wrong way to understand humans. We aren't rational agents.
- mpfundstein 10y ago
  Couldn't agree more. I cycle 30 km every day to work and back. When I was a student, I cycled 40km every to Uni and back. You just have to get used to it. While I own a car, I use it maybe only once per month. To get some wood or transport some things from the IKEA. I have to admit, I live in Amsterdam, so the infrastructure for cycling is great.
jdavis703 10y ago
It's funny, I have a lime tree and fig tree in my apartment, along with some other plants. Even if not driving is not an option, there's always carpooling which should approximately halve the impact of driving alone. We can either wait for climate change to disrupt our lives, or we can disrupt climate change.
- ThomPete 10y ago
  what about just preparing for the consequences of climate change.
  - jcoffland 10y ago
    We could practice by colonizing Venus.
exergy 10y ago
Forgive me for the forthcoming rant, this is not a slight at you, but I really dislike the kind of attitude that you are projecting here. Al Gore famously said in his documentary that a lot of people go from Denial to Despair without pausing at the middle step of Doing Something about it. Biking definitely can solve climate change. Seems to me that people simply do not get it through their heads that climate change starts with what they expect out of life. As long as everyone wants to drive an SUV or a fucking pickup truck because it is "safe", live 25 miles from work, own a new smartphone every two years, have a perfectly manicured front and back yard etc., we are all fucked. For too many people, climate change is a "their" problem: * Wind turbines? Sure, just not in my backyard because it spoils my fucking view. * Nuclear reactors? Hmm, maybe, but definitely not in my state, and preferably not in my country. * Not travelling to exotic locations every holiday, and instead going on local hikes a bit more? No way! * Give up owning a new smartphone every two years? Dead on Arrival. * Wearing a sweater indoors in the winter instead of constant 25 deg C temperature indoors and 20 minute hot showers? Go fuck yourself. No, but look! I installed a Nest thermostat, so the do-gooder halo around my head is glowing bright! * Biking to work? I can't! Live too far from home this and sweaty at work that. Nothing but excuses. And wait! Is this uber-consumeristic lifestyle making me happier? No?! How is that possible? Climate change is NOT a problem that more technology can solve. It is a sociological problem. A problem of what people expect out of life. As long as people keep thinking it's the politicians at fault and they don't owe anyone a damn thing, well, we'll keep on keeping on with business as usual. And you know what business as usual is? We haven't even started decreasing the rate of CO2 increase, what to talk of a zero emission civilization. Sorry this is incoherent and comes across as a jab at you. It's not. It's just me expressing my frustration as an engineer. I hate that the layperson is convinced that it is engineering that will solve climate change, and That Technology to cure us of all ails is just around the corner. It's not. We need to stop fucking raiding this planet.
- ThomPete 10y ago
  thats ok i can take it but what you dont seem to get is that we are humans not systems and thus wont be making the changes any other way than through technology. you are basically asking humans not to be human which i believe is a common engineering blind spot :) dont hate the players hate the game.
jcoffland 10y ago
Not driving is always an option. What if fuel cost $10,000 a gallon? Would you still drive? No, you'd figure something else out. You would convince your boss to let you telecommute, you'd take the train, bike or walk. Or you would find another job.
- ThomPete 10y ago
  thats the thing though fuel would never be regulated to cost $10k a gallon the economy would get killed along with the political careers of those who voted it through.
  - jcoffland 10y ago
    That's not the point. Cars are optional. The question is, is giving them up worth the cost?
    - ThomPete 10y ago
      Cars are not optional for most people. They dont just buy them for fun, especially not in china, india and large part of europe. So the answer is no its not worth the cost.
      - jcoffland 10y ago
        And if the cost is that the planet is going to heat up like Venus within the next 100 years?
DrScump 10y ago
Not sure how you would plant a raspberry tree in a New York apartment. Buying a brand new fuel efficient car is generally suboptimal for a NYC apartment dweller as well.

maxerickson 10y ago

Devoting new land to forest is the important bit. Trees have been planting trees for a while now. I wouldn't be terribly surprised if all the driving around people do on Arbor Day makes the direct effect negative.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]