5 ms·

Yes, we should. We think we know better. We have senses and can measure ways in which the quality of life of man and animals can be ascertained, and we can conc

by gonmf 10y ago

Yes, we should. We think we know better. We have senses and can measure ways in which the quality of life of man and animals can be ascertained, and we can conclude that these people will live much shorter, worse, unfulfilling lives, than those of people born elsewhere on average. If not the first generation, at least the following. It is because we are culturally timid and racist that we still hold to the idea of the noble savage [1], and condemn their children to their wretched lives. A child not knowing what it's missing is no excuse to let her suffer, when we are in position to help. Regime change operations and invasions have little to do with this unless they come from the sincere effort to improve their people's lives. And when the intention is sincere and the execution well planned, it works, and you can tell by the quality of life of countries like Japan and South Korea. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noble_savage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noble_savage

alphabettsy 10y ago
This completely leaves out the element of choice on their behalf. Based on what is known it's entirely possible they choose not to have any part in "our world". Previous contact had some of their people kidnapped and some died so I'm sure that and similar events are the reason for hostility towards visitors. The fact that you even talk about them living an unfulfilling life is entirely ethnocentric, what is a fulfilled life anyways? I'd love to learn more about them, and ideally we could learn from each other.
- gonmf 10y ago
  1) They currently do not have an element of choice. And it would actually be very difficult or impossible to proportionate them a full choice since they would have to know what their lives would be like if outside the island, or with a modernized island. 2) Human beings fear the unknown (quite rightly so, often). 3) You can make the relativity argument all day. I personally believe that a person that is confined to an island in pre-agricultural civilization does not live a life as fulfilling as one that can access vast amounts of information on the internet, can read thousands of texts written over a span of 3 millenia on every topic imagined, can hear Antonio Vivaldi [1], almost void of unnecessary or unusual suffering and privation, for over twice the lifetime. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z39KxbbtCC0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z39KxbbtCC0
  - alphabettsy 10y ago
    As I said, I'm all for offering them greater information to make choices, but your conclusion that their life is worse by all measures is an ethnocentric opinion. Certainly thats the conclusion most people would reach, but that can only be based on what we believe to be best.
    - rtx 10y ago
      Willing to live is not a cultural trait.
      - alphabettsy 10y ago
        Can you explain what you mean by that?
  - charles-salvia 10y ago
    What do you want us to do? These guys keep throwing spears and shooting arrows at anyone that approaches their island. Should we... should we ask the Indian government to send in an armed infantry unit to force the Sentinelese to sit down and watch a video explaining the benefits of 21st century civilization? Meanwhile, way more people actually living in 21st century civilization in India are currently experiencing extreme poverty and suffering,[1] despite having instant access to Vivaldi. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dharavi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dharavi
yongjik 10y ago
Funny you mention my country. You know, back in the early 20th century, Japan had exactly the same attitude. It saw itself as the beacon of progress tasked with leading the rest of Asia out of traditional misery and into the modern civilization. White men's burden, Asian edition. It went on to colonize Korea, to teach us what modern civilization is like, and of course went on to occupy other parts of Asia as well. Somewhere along the way they got overenthusiastic and declared themselves the protector of Asian people against roaring tides of Western colonialism. Well, we all know how that went. And yes, for all the supposedly good things Japan did for us (there are some), the colonial time was shitty days to live in. * And then America took up the mantle, decided to cut Korea in halves, and then propped up a pro-western dictator who went on to murder more than a hundred thousand people... (Well, to be fair, it's not like America picked him because he was murderous: America probably didn't think he would be that bad. But still, it was more shitty days to live in.)
KSS42 10y ago
Sounds like you are arguing to take up the Whiteman's Burden: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_White_Man%27s_Burden https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_White_Man%27s_Burden Take up the White Man's burden, The savage wars of peace— Fill full the mouth of Famine And bid the sickness cease; And when your goal is nearest The end for others sought, Watch sloth and heathen Folly Bring all your hopes to nought. The Canadian government tried something like this with the Residential School System: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Indian_residential_school_system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Indian_residential_sc... The residential school system had a lasting and adverse effect on the transmission of Aboriginal culture from one generation to the next. Over 150,000 students attended residential schools, constituting approximately 30% of the population of native children in Canada.[1] The legacy of the schools on Aboriginal communities has been referred to as a "collective soul wound." A sample of 127 survivors revealed that half of these survivors have criminal records; 65% have been diagnosed with post traumatic stress disorder; 21% have been diagnosed with major depression; 7% have been diagnosed with anxiety disorder; and 7% have been diagnosed with borderline personality disorder.

by gonmf 10y ago

alphabettsy 10y ago

This completely leaves out the element of choice on their behalf. Based on what is known it's entirely possible they choose not to have any part in "our world". Previous contact had some of their people kidnapped and some died so I'm sure that and similar events are the reason for hostility towards visitors. The fact that you even talk about them living an unfulfilling life is entirely ethnocentric, what is a fulfilled life anyways? I'd love to learn more about them, and ideally we could learn from each other.

gonmf 10y ago
1) They currently do not have an element of choice. And it would actually be very difficult or impossible to proportionate them a full choice since they would have to know what their lives would be like if outside the island, or with a modernized island. 2) Human beings fear the unknown (quite rightly so, often). 3) You can make the relativity argument all day. I personally believe that a person that is confined to an island in pre-agricultural civilization does not live a life as fulfilling as one that can access vast amounts of information on the internet, can read thousands of texts written over a span of 3 millenia on every topic imagined, can hear Antonio Vivaldi [1], almost void of unnecessary or unusual suffering and privation, for over twice the lifetime. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z39KxbbtCC0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z39KxbbtCC0
- alphabettsy 10y ago
  As I said, I'm all for offering them greater information to make choices, but your conclusion that their life is worse by all measures is an ethnocentric opinion. Certainly thats the conclusion most people would reach, but that can only be based on what we believe to be best.
  - rtx 10y ago
    Willing to live is not a cultural trait.
    - alphabettsy 10y ago
      Can you explain what you mean by that?
- charles-salvia 10y ago
  What do you want us to do? These guys keep throwing spears and shooting arrows at anyone that approaches their island. Should we... should we ask the Indian government to send in an armed infantry unit to force the Sentinelese to sit down and watch a video explaining the benefits of 21st century civilization? Meanwhile, way more people actually living in 21st century civilization in India are currently experiencing extreme poverty and suffering,[1] despite having instant access to Vivaldi. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dharavi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dharavi

yongjik 10y ago

Funny you mention my country. You know, back in the early 20th century, Japan had exactly the same attitude. It saw itself as the beacon of progress tasked with leading the rest of Asia out of traditional misery and into the modern civilization. White men's burden, Asian edition. It went on to colonize Korea, to teach us what modern civilization is like, and of course went on to occupy other parts of Asia as well. Somewhere along the way they got overenthusiastic and declared themselves the protector of Asian people against roaring tides of Western colonialism. Well, we all know how that went. And yes, for all the supposedly good things Japan did for us (there are some), the colonial time was shitty days to live in. * And then America took up the mantle, decided to cut Korea in halves, and then propped up a pro-western dictator who went on to murder more than a hundred thousand people... (Well, to be fair, it's not like America picked him because he was murderous: America probably didn't think he would be that bad. But still, it was more shitty days to live in.)

KSS42 10y ago

Sounds like you are arguing to take up the Whiteman's Burden: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_White_Man%27s_Burden https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_White_Man%27s_Burden Take up the White Man's burden, The savage wars of peace— Fill full the mouth of Famine And bid the sickness cease; And when your goal is nearest The end for others sought, Watch sloth and heathen Folly Bring all your hopes to nought. The Canadian government tried something like this with the Residential School System: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Indian_residential_school_system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Indian_residential_sc... The residential school system had a lasting and adverse effect on the transmission of Aboriginal culture from one generation to the next. Over 150,000 students attended residential schools, constituting approximately 30% of the population of native children in Canada.[1] The legacy of the schools on Aboriginal communities has been referred to as a "collective soul wound." A sample of 127 survivors revealed that half of these survivors have criminal records; 65% have been diagnosed with post traumatic stress disorder; 21% have been diagnosed with major depression; 7% have been diagnosed with anxiety disorder; and 7% have been diagnosed with borderline personality disorder.