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Original (in German): https://www.golem.de/news/meldepflicht-bundesnetzagentur-will-hundert-jabber-clients-regulieren-1703-126929.html https://www.golem.de/news

by orless 10y ago

Original (in German): https://www.golem.de/news/meldepflicht-bundesnetzagentur-will-hundert-jabber-clients-regulieren-1703-126929.html https://www.golem.de/news/meldepflicht-bundesnetzagentur-wil... TL;DR German Federal Network Agency (BNetzA) contacted more than 100 developers of XMPP clients, in or outside Germany. BNetzA considers XMPP-clients to be "telecommunication services" and requested developers to register with German authorities, as required by the German "telecommunication law". Here's a relavant tweet by Xabber developer from Chelyabinsk, Russia: https://twitter.com/Xabber_XMPP/status/844865634672435200 https://twitter.com/Xabber_XMPP/status/844865634672435200 Update: Corrected BND -> BNetzA, was a wrong translation.

orless 10y ago
For those interested, here's the relevant paragraph from the "telecommunication law": https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=de&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=de&ie=UTF-8&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.gesetze-im-internet.de%2Ftkg_2004%2F__6.html&edit-text= https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=de&tl=en&js=y&prev...
deleted 10y ago
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jplayer01 10y ago
Well, this is idiotic. What's going on over here at the moment? First they want to regulate streamers and levie taxes on them, now this.
- onli 10y ago
  Well, that happens if you have a conservative government which does not understand technology. Positions in agencies like this get filled by people with no clue, advocates and bureaucrats who don't understand where the law ends try taking on the world, using their small little letters. Even sending them into the sovjet union (in 2017, they even have time machines!) - you can see how old the responsible people are, in which century their thinking was formed. But, to be fair, Germany was always crazy like this. There was always censorship of media (trying to have developers registered stems from that), that goes back to when Germany was a collection of small kingdoms. Add the conversative mentality of its people (when book printing was invented, they decried the harmful habit of reading too much) and you have to end up with that backwards, crazy and megalomaniac little country Germany is today. And I speak here as German.
  - catdog 10y ago
    > Well, that happens if you have a conservative government which does not understand technology. Sometimes it's even scarier when they do and discover what great capabilities for surveillance and control it can offer.
    - onli 10y ago
      They do. The BND is using those capabilities to spy on all germans and the whole world, with a little help from our american friends. Those are not the same clueless people that end up in the regulation agencies.
  - matt4077 10y ago
    I always try to find an explanation that makes sense and assumes good faith before going for incompetence and corruption: These cases arise because of legislation that has not been updated to account for new technology. If you're charged with regulating a newly-liberated telecom market in 1992, it makes sense to require "telecommunication providers" to register as a first step to monitor developments in the market. With the internet, you suddenly have thousands of people and companies that fit the letter of the law. You tell the politicians that maybe something should be done, but it doesn't really appear to be important so they'll wait to stick it into a general overhaul of the legislation that's on the horizon, and do more urgent stuff in the meantime. But, as the guy/gal tasked with this register, all that matters is the actual law, and you're pretty sure it applies. What now? You could just disregard the law. You probably won't even get in trouble, because it's unlikely they'd notice anyway, nor would it cause any harm. But sending out these letters defying common sense is actually the better course of action: First, it protect you in case something does happen. You never know the creativity of people – someone, somewhere might figure out how to die from an unregistered chat client. More importantly, it puts the issue on the agenda and parliament will have mercy with you and update the law soon(ish). And that's actually quite important, because while it may seem innocuous to ignore a stupid law in a case like this, you don't want that practice to spread. The rule of law is pretty important – and I'm not speaking of dictatorships here, but simply knowing, as a citizen, what to expect from your interactions with the bureaucracy. Example: Should I buy that open lot downtown and build a house? Well the law says it can't be build because it's too close to the river, but I've heard they usually disregard that law because with the new dam upstream the river no longer floods... -> Legal uncertainty is poisonous for any development.
eternalban 10y ago
> BNetzA considers XMPP-clients to be "telecommunication services" But that is exactly what network clients provide: telecommunication services. IFF the relationship between the states and the governed was healthy you wouldn't bat an eyelash at the suggestion. Problem is elsewhere.
- balfirevic 10y ago
  > IFF the relationship between the states and the governed was healthy you wouldn't bat an eyelash at the suggestion. Please clarify what suggestion you mean: that XMPP clients are telecommunication services or that their developers need to register?
  - eternalban 10y ago
    The client is a component of a communication service. Such components used to be (mainly devices and) developed solely by corporations already integrated into the 'system'. You don't trust the system, and you have good reasons for that, and the 'system' doesn't trust actors it does not control. It is that simple.
    - balfirevic 10y ago
      I just asked for a clarification of what suggestion you exactly meant in your original comment and I still have no idea after this response.
    - matt4077 10y ago
      I have no idea what "the system" is supposed to mean, but if you think this is a conspiracy to undermine the mighty people's revolution organising in XMPP, you should seek help in "the healthcare system"
- orless 10y ago
  The definition of "telecommunication services is in §3 Nr. 24: https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/tkg_2004/__3.html https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/tkg_2004/__3.html Translated "consist wholly or predominantly in the transmission of signals over telecommunications networks, including transmission services in broadcasting networks". I find it hard to argue that some piece of software can be a transmission service. From the other hand, GMail was considered a "telecommunication service" by a German court: https://www.noerr.com/de/newsroom/News/gmail-ist-ein-telekommunikationsdienst-im-sinne-des-tkg.aspx https://www.noerr.com/de/newsroom/News/gmail-ist-ein-telekom... Translated: https://translate.google.de/translate?hl=de&sl=de&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.noerr.com%2Fde%2Fnewsroom%2FNews%2Fgmail-ist-ein-telekommunikationsdienst-im-sinne-des-tkg.aspx https://translate.google.de/translate?hl=de&sl=de&tl=en&u=ht... However there is an important difference: "Google Inc. therefore has its own switching technology (original "Vermittlungstechnik" - transmission tech) and therefore has, in any case, partial control over the signal transmission." An XMPP-client, in contrast does not have own transmission tech and has no control over signal transmission.
deleted 10y ago
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tomjen3 10y ago
The nerve of the German government, trying to enforce their laws outside Germany didn't go very well last time they tried that.

by orless 10y ago

orless 10y ago

For those interested, here's the relevant paragraph from the "telecommunication law": https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=de&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=de&ie=UTF-8&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.gesetze-im-internet.de%2Ftkg_2004%2F__6.html&edit-text= https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=de&tl=en&js=y&prev...

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

jplayer01 10y ago

Well, this is idiotic. What's going on over here at the moment? First they want to regulate streamers and levie taxes on them, now this.

onli 10y ago
Well, that happens if you have a conservative government which does not understand technology. Positions in agencies like this get filled by people with no clue, advocates and bureaucrats who don't understand where the law ends try taking on the world, using their small little letters. Even sending them into the sovjet union (in 2017, they even have time machines!) - you can see how old the responsible people are, in which century their thinking was formed. But, to be fair, Germany was always crazy like this. There was always censorship of media (trying to have developers registered stems from that), that goes back to when Germany was a collection of small kingdoms. Add the conversative mentality of its people (when book printing was invented, they decried the harmful habit of reading too much) and you have to end up with that backwards, crazy and megalomaniac little country Germany is today. And I speak here as German.
- catdog 10y ago
  > Well, that happens if you have a conservative government which does not understand technology. Sometimes it's even scarier when they do and discover what great capabilities for surveillance and control it can offer.
  - onli 10y ago
    They do. The BND is using those capabilities to spy on all germans and the whole world, with a little help from our american friends. Those are not the same clueless people that end up in the regulation agencies.
- matt4077 10y ago
  I always try to find an explanation that makes sense and assumes good faith before going for incompetence and corruption: These cases arise because of legislation that has not been updated to account for new technology. If you're charged with regulating a newly-liberated telecom market in 1992, it makes sense to require "telecommunication providers" to register as a first step to monitor developments in the market. With the internet, you suddenly have thousands of people and companies that fit the letter of the law. You tell the politicians that maybe something should be done, but it doesn't really appear to be important so they'll wait to stick it into a general overhaul of the legislation that's on the horizon, and do more urgent stuff in the meantime. But, as the guy/gal tasked with this register, all that matters is the actual law, and you're pretty sure it applies. What now? You could just disregard the law. You probably won't even get in trouble, because it's unlikely they'd notice anyway, nor would it cause any harm. But sending out these letters defying common sense is actually the better course of action: First, it protect you in case something does happen. You never know the creativity of people – someone, somewhere might figure out how to die from an unregistered chat client. More importantly, it puts the issue on the agenda and parliament will have mercy with you and update the law soon(ish). And that's actually quite important, because while it may seem innocuous to ignore a stupid law in a case like this, you don't want that practice to spread. The rule of law is pretty important – and I'm not speaking of dictatorships here, but simply knowing, as a citizen, what to expect from your interactions with the bureaucracy. Example: Should I buy that open lot downtown and build a house? Well the law says it can't be build because it's too close to the river, but I've heard they usually disregard that law because with the new dam upstream the river no longer floods... -> Legal uncertainty is poisonous for any development.

eternalban 10y ago

> BNetzA considers XMPP-clients to be "telecommunication services" But that is exactly what network clients provide: telecommunication services. IFF the relationship between the states and the governed was healthy you wouldn't bat an eyelash at the suggestion. Problem is elsewhere.

balfirevic 10y ago
> IFF the relationship between the states and the governed was healthy you wouldn't bat an eyelash at the suggestion. Please clarify what suggestion you mean: that XMPP clients are telecommunication services or that their developers need to register?
- eternalban 10y ago
  The client is a component of a communication service. Such components used to be (mainly devices and) developed solely by corporations already integrated into the 'system'. You don't trust the system, and you have good reasons for that, and the 'system' doesn't trust actors it does not control. It is that simple.
  - balfirevic 10y ago
    I just asked for a clarification of what suggestion you exactly meant in your original comment and I still have no idea after this response.
  - matt4077 10y ago
    I have no idea what "the system" is supposed to mean, but if you think this is a conspiracy to undermine the mighty people's revolution organising in XMPP, you should seek help in "the healthcare system"
orless 10y ago
The definition of "telecommunication services is in §3 Nr. 24: https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/tkg_2004/__3.html https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/tkg_2004/__3.html Translated "consist wholly or predominantly in the transmission of signals over telecommunications networks, including transmission services in broadcasting networks". I find it hard to argue that some piece of software can be a transmission service. From the other hand, GMail was considered a "telecommunication service" by a German court: https://www.noerr.com/de/newsroom/News/gmail-ist-ein-telekommunikationsdienst-im-sinne-des-tkg.aspx https://www.noerr.com/de/newsroom/News/gmail-ist-ein-telekom... Translated: https://translate.google.de/translate?hl=de&sl=de&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.noerr.com%2Fde%2Fnewsroom%2FNews%2Fgmail-ist-ein-telekommunikationsdienst-im-sinne-des-tkg.aspx https://translate.google.de/translate?hl=de&sl=de&tl=en&u=ht... However there is an important difference: "Google Inc. therefore has its own switching technology (original "Vermittlungstechnik" - transmission tech) and therefore has, in any case, partial control over the signal transmission." An XMPP-client, in contrast does not have own transmission tech and has no control over signal transmission.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

tomjen3 10y ago

The nerve of the German government, trying to enforce their laws outside Germany didn't go very well last time they tried that.