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In my job search, I've been surprised by how often you submit a resume online, and then you don't even get a rejection email. It's a true "black hole" in that y
by apsec112 10y ago
In my job search, I've been surprised by how often you submit a resume online, and then you don't even get a rejection email. It's a true "black hole" in that you never hear back, not even with a "no thanks". I think it's disrespectful of candidates to ask them to spend time filling out an application, and then leave them hanging because you're (presumably) too lazy to read it.
- kintamanimatt 10y agoPart of the reason is that rejected candidates tend to ask why they were rejected, which is a massive time sink. The logic goes that it's better to black hole than it is to be inundated with requests for reasons.
- soneca 10y agoA clearly automatic rejection with some corporative language is not particularly nice or warm, but fulfills the role of notifying the rejection without any room for this time sinking demand.
- chiph 10y agoSeriously. All it takes is a form letter, and then you know for certain. Dear Applicant, We're sorry but we have decided not to go forward with your application at the present time. We will keep your CV on file for 6 months in case our needs change. Best of luck in your future endeavors.
- throwaway2048 10y agoYeah, god forbid corporations show some common courtsey lest it cost small amounts of money.
- dilemma 10y agoNo, it is a status and power play. People that apply are unworthy of a reply. You really want to be head hunted, or get a warm intro. I have personal experience being black holed when applying and hired when introduced, and know others for which the same has happened.
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- alex_anglin 10y agoUnless your applicants become your prospects or customers. At that point, it's going to be incredibly hard to get over any negative sentiment. The hiring process is as much a communication and marketing process as anything else and needs to be treated as such.
- amorphid 10y agoWhen recruiting, I chose to reject thousands of people. For obvious rejections, I sent an auto generated email that looked like it could be from a human. If someone asked why they'd been rejected, I'd simply say the hiring manager chose to focus on more obvious matches for the position, and that was the end of it. Maybe 1 in 100 asked for feedback, but I didn't keep stats. For a few candidates who were unlikely to be a fit, I'd reject them, and say why I didn't think it'd a match. Usually if I heard back, it was simply to say thank you for acknowledging them. For one position, I was recruiting a CTO. I rejected one Craigslist sourced applicant, and gave him reasons why he didn't fit the CEO's list of filtering bullet points. He responded with information that flipped him from a no to a yes, he got the interview, and eventually got the job!
- chrisper 10y ago>For a few candidates who were unlikely to be a fit, I'd reject them, and say why I didn't think it'd a match. I read that a lot of people don't do this because they are afraid of $RANDOM lawsuit.
- throw_away_777 10y agoI always assume this is just an excuse - they don't give you a reason because there is no reason for them to give you a reason. If there was some benefit for them to giving you a reason they would not fear the lawsuits. Maybe some people from Europe can talk about whether companies give them reasons, I suspect even in Europe companies don't tell applicants why they didn't hire them.
- amorphid 10y agoIf you're rejecting someone for because they'd never get the job, it's not worth explaining why. Reasons include the candidate wasting their time to impress you in a way they will never work, getting sucked into a sob story about how they really need a job, and the candidate starting an argument, etc. Here's an extreme example. I rejected a candidate, and felt bad for him. I gave a specific reason why he'd never get the job. A few hours later, he showed up in the lobby of our office building, coked out of his mind (that's what it looked and felt like, but he was probably just intensely upset). He started demanding to see HR. Shit went from chill to super uncomfortable in 0 seconds flat. I walked up to him, suggested he leave, at which point he realized I'm twice his size, and he departed. Yikes! I stopped giving invalid rejection explanations after that. It's just not worth it, and that's part of living in the world that sucks more than I'd like it to.
- smbullet 10y agoFacebook "black holed" me after two phone interviews. Had to email them them a couple weeks later to see what was up. Never seen that before. Edit: I guess "black holed" isn't the right term since I did get an interview but you know what I mean
- madamelic 10y agoI call it 'Ghosted'. Basically, you are talking, you both like each other and then suddenly you don't hear from the other person. I had a few companies ghost me and it was annoying. I don't entirely mind if I apply and just never hear back, I just get to laugh at them when they email me two months later asking for interview.
- busterarm 10y agoLot of New York companies do this one.
- madamelic 10y agoYep. That is where it was.
- jsmthrowaway 10y agoI've heard this called the "California No," in both a personal and professional setting. Apparently it's extremely common in Hollywood and that's where the term came from. I've definitely noticed as I socialize in California that people avoid perceived confrontation more here, so maybe there's something to it. A new one I've noticed recently is what I call the "read receipt no," where someone will read a message, send a read receipt, then not reply to say no. If someone does it to me I tend to lose some respect, but that's possibly because I'm an outsider. Maybe Californians expect that but I usually hope for the respect of a direct no. (Shrug.)
- VLM 10y agoI've seen this as a strategy for H1B fraud, months after accepting applications everyone good is probably employed somewhere, so suddenly we've recently discovered there are no qualified local applicants for the job position H1B stamped approved. If you want to make the HR person extremely angry then feign interest and you've ruined their whole H1B process. Its kinda funny to do. Sometimes they'll slam the phone down or sound like they're about to cry. If they're made of sterner stuff you'll get requirements like an in person interview at 4am or an interview within the hour in person (for a job 100 miles away).
- repeek 10y agoEspecially with Taleo-based sites. It's either auto-rejection or black hole. Has Taleo been successful for anyone?
- Overtonwindow 10y agoI've always wondered something: Does Taleo compare your resume across ALL of its sites? Like if you submit a resume for Company A, but you also sent one for Company B, and both use Taleo, does the software say "This applicant applied elsewhere and here's what they said that was different" ? I've never received a response from a Taleo system.
- hughdbrown 10y agoTaleo's particular talent is in interfering with applications to other companies that use Taleo. Suppose you use Taleo to submit to Oracle. Great! But when you use Taleo to submit to Cisco, you need to use a different address because email addresses for oracle.taleo.net and cisco.taleo.net are in the same namespace. There are a couple of online systems that make me reconsider applying, and Taleo definitely leads the pack.
- rhizome 10y agoWait...you can only apply to one of their customers?
- 10y ago
- jansho 10y agoI had one recruiter asking me for the exact dates of my past contracts, four times. It took a great deal of patience to repeatedly explain that they are already in the CV, just next to the company name and job title. In the end, I had to screenshot and red-circle the areas. That was the aha moment. I'm not sure if this is laziness or what. But it does tell me that they don't care very much.
- jghn 10y agoI'd have to really want a job or really need a job to put up with that sort of behavior. For all other situations I have close to a zero tolerance policy.
- MohammadLee 10y agoI so you are very lucky. 99% of people have to put up with things like this without saying a thing.
- jghn 10y agoDo you? I noted that if I really wanted or needed the job that I'd put up with it. Wouldn't that apply to everyone? Suppose you're happy where you are now but an opportunity comes by which sounds good so you start talking to them. They're super flakey. Wouldn't you just say "screw it"?
- abalashov 10y agoWell, good for you. The rest of us have to put up with it whether we like it or not.
- echo419 10y ago...Here's what the rest of us put up with that aren't in SW engineering/development/IT. Step 1. Put in 300+ applications (200+ in Nor Cal Central Valley area, 178 in PHX area) Step 2. Wait for responses and get a 2% response rate in Nor Cal/central valley, and a 17% response rate in PHX...with the exact same resume despite being top 25% of the class, extra curriculars, and having a decent econ degree) Step 3. Of 90% of the places and recruiters that contact they will either A. Pay you substandard wages, B. Make it clear that you are replaceable and they don't actually care about workers or work/life balance, C. Ghost you after contacting and interviewing you or D. Some combo of the above. The worst one I've had is the same corporate recruiter lie to me multiple times over a part time job with no benefits, who brought me in for an interview that made it clear that they had no quality control, no work life balance, poor workplace communication, and expected workers to be treated like crap and be OK with it, oh and the best part is, that company was a major household brand that does $5bn in revenue annually. So yeah, I've had recruiters treat me like crap, tell me I'm worthless, and companies string me along, while I'm trying to scrape by and eat...not that I've got a chip on my shoulder about the entitled attitudes that are represented by this comment on HN.
- ryanSrich 10y ago100%. The sooner you build a network and put yourself in a position to not have to apply to jobs the better.
- pacaro 10y agoThis is true, but embedded within it contains a huge challenge for the industry. Hiring through people's networks and referrals has potential to really harm diversity. Hiring is an expensive process by any measure. But whenever we find a shortcut we have to be mindful of unintended consequences
- briandear 10y agoIf you're filing the position with a high quality candidate, I'm not sure how diversity is relevant.
- lazyasciiart 10y agoYou might not be sure, but high quality candidates who aren't already in the heterogenous pool you are hiring from can probably come up with something.
- battlebot 10y agoThat's not possible for everyone. Plus, I just landed my new job going through a recruiter. There are actually some good recruiters out there not just the typical used car salesman "an ass for every seat" types. I'm helping a recent grad get some experience and have been trying to network for him. Introverted people have a tough time with things like networks.
- TsomArp 10y agoHow do you "build a network" at companies you have never worked before, and you have no contacts at? You start adding them to your linkedin and then spamming them with messages saying "please be my friend"? I am asking because I heard this recommendation (build a network) all the time, but it is really really difficult to do, more so if you consider the number of companies where one can apply...
- loteck 10y agoI sympathize deeply with this sentiment. However, let's switch modes. Please suggest your solution for the problem of receiving 1,874 resumes for a job posting and, 42 days later, finding your likely candidate on the 244th candidate you reviewed.
- Overtonwindow 10y agoUse an automated system to pick out keywords and phrases. Put first 25 in that stack aside. Send a rejection notice to everyone else. The issue is not finding a candidate, the issue is leaving everyone else hanging while you find that candidate.
- loteck 10y agoWhat if my stack of 25 turn up only unqualifoed people who know to submit keyworded documents? Aren't we now un-rejecting people just like the linked article satirizes? I feel like such an automated approach is roundly criticized by HN on a regular basis. I guess my point is that when you're dealing with this, there are no popular solutions. Un-networked job seekers need thick skin.
- TsomArp 10y agoOnce you find the 1-N candidates you were looking, you "close" the search, and the system sends an automatic reply to all the rest. Not very complicated.u
- Overtonwindow 10y agoAgreed, thank you for clarifying that.
- rhizome 10y agoPlease suggest your solution... This is completely unfair. GP is not an HR professional by any indication. If your accountant says your website looks ugly, do you hire them as your designer?
- jneal 10y agoI very much agree. A few years ago I was searching for a new job and there was this one place specifically that had an opening that sounded like a perfect fit for my skill set. They had an extremely long application process that involved "Pre-Employment Testing" (something called Criteria?). Anyway, I spent hours working on this application only to never hear back. Funny enough, after landing an even better gig, I randomly got contacted by one of their recruiters on LinkedIn asking if I would be interested in the opportunity they were still hiring for. No mention of the fact that I had already applied and never heard back.
- rhizome 10y agoBoy, Criteria looks...interesting. One of their first press releases: https://www.criteriacorp.com/company/news_item_3.php https://www.criteriacorp.com/company/news_item_3.php
- speeder 10y agoSamsung tried to hire me a couple times, but their side always went missing out of the blue. One day I saw them complaining in a major magazine about not finding anyone, and I not only reapplied but wrote an almost angry email detailing past attempts. They did their best this time, I talked to their team almost daily for almost 2 weeks setting all up... and then they complained I didn't had experience in that particular job title. I explained that noone local had that experience, they were the first company in the country with that particular position open... Then the HR guy apologized so much I felt sorry for him, and he explained it was company policy that the job required experience, and another policy required locals only... So policy for the win?
- Tagore 10y agoYeah, seriously, don't do that, unless you enjoy it. Almost certainly a waste of time.
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- rokhayakebe 10y agoOne deserves a reply if one crafted a personalized cover letter, no matter how short. However the copy/paste guy shouldn't expect anything back.
- eli_gottlieb 10y agoI did an on-site almost two weeks ago and haven't heard anything :-/.
- pm90 10y agoThat is incredibly frustrating and unprofessional. You have GOT to get in touch with the recruiter/point of contact. Sometimes recruiters leave, or there is a bug in the system and you get dropped, whatever. Just try contacting them to know for sure what happened.
- wott 10y agoContacting will probably not get him to know what happened. He will most likely get whatever standard bullshit excuse comes across the mind of his respondent at the time. Anyway, it might revive his application a bit or at least get him a final no.
- JabavuAdams 10y agoI learned that it was was standard procedure to ping the company and ask about progress if you didn't hear back from them within a week. Is this no longer the case? E.g. Hi X, Thanks for taking the time to interview me, blah blah blah, ... next steps?
- BinaryIdiot 10y agoNot even that but I'm convinced some companies, like Twitter, have an automated rejection system. I remember submitted my resume online at like 3am PST and getting a response within minutes rejecting me saying I wasn't a good fit for the job (I met all qualifications). So, suspecting it was automated I waited a few days, completely changed up my resume and resubmitted it and it was rejected in less than a minute saying I wasn't the right fit for the job. Resume submission systems are never good. Always always opt to send directly to a real email address (like in the who's hiring HN threads).
- devmunchies 10y agoWould they have criteria for specific schools or companies you were at? ...or is it years of experience or something?
- BinaryIdiot 10y agoI'm not sure. I've mentioned it a couple of times on HN to see if anyone from Twitter could confirm or deny my suspicious. It's possible someone just rejected it themselves but I'd really like to know.
- scorpioxy 10y agoIt might be that the vacancies are just there to create the illusion of growth. Because if you're hiring then you're clearly growing. I recently interviewed with a company that straight-up told me that they don't have any positions right now but might in the future. That same position I was interviewed for got re-advertised a couple of months after my interview. Come to think of it, I know of several examples(startups) where the company was actually failing and about to run out of money and they still advertised but couldn't possibly hire. In my opinion, that's purposefully wasting people's time.
- hutzlibu 10y agoI know examples from quite traditional companys, no-startups. ANd yes, it is a huge waste of time.
- TuringNYC 10y agoInsider perspective here: At a past employer, a Fortune 100 public company, the best roles were already slotted by senior execs for liked insiders and/or friends&family in the community. The job posting was just a formality, the end result was known well in advance of any job posting. Submissions to these job postings just languished because there was no one pressuring HR to sift through them, and it was well known inside that those positions were already filled. From the outside, you just don't know. Very unfortunate because it creates hope for people who, in some cases, don't have any chance.
- nougatine 10y agoThat's asinine. Because of some internal policy, you guarantee to waste people's time. It's already an asymmetric process, but behaviour like this makes it even more lopsided and plain wasteful.
- elastic_church 10y agoOr state policy lol. Or internal interpretation of state policy. lolwyers.
- TheRealDunkirk 10y agoYou've hit the nail on the head. I appreciate the situation with companies. The "black hole" exists because they can't possibly deal humanly with every inquiry. To me, the question is: Why is the situation so asymmetric? Why is job hunting such a "seller's market?" Why do companies get hundreds, or thousands, of applications for one open position? It's like everyone who does similar work is continually submitting their application every time a position opens up within driving distance. If unemployment figures are as low as the government says, what's driving the deluge of applications? Is it simply "grass is greener" mentality?
- ungerik 10y agoYou send out 100 applications to get a job, the company gets 100 applications per job. Where is the asymmetry?
- dizzystar 10y agoI'm the total opposite. I absolutely hate rejection letters. They give me no upside feeling and they are all a downer. I'm applying to jobs because I sort of need one, not because I'm out to get social goodwill. This feeling of sinking "ugh" only worsens on days when I get 3 or more rejection letters. If you do send a rejection letter, at least make sure it has proper grammar and spelling, and please send it within, idk, 6 months? I have gotten some amazing rejection letters, but only after an interview. These are well-thought out, globally applicable to all rejections, and directly show why I wasn't a good fit. In sum, they were impossible to argue with. I've only received a handful of these, but they were worth keeping around for inspiration.
- penguat 10y agoWhere I work it is standard policy to send meaningful feedback after a face-to-face interview. We actively work to make this helpful.
- faruken 10y agoI received an empty email once (an airline).
- mixedbit 10y agoI wonder how often the "We're Hiring" links on companies landing pages are there only to make the business look healthy and growing while in fact the company is not hiring.
- wott 10y agoYes, and sometimes you can tell from a reference number that includes figures looking suspiciously like a year, that the "job offer" has been lying there for 3 or 4 years. You can see the dust layers on it.