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Do they don't know/care about security, or is it simply the case that it is hard to have something like the secure enclave across all Android devices? Genuine q

Do they don't know/care about security, or is it simply the case that it is hard to have something like the secure enclave across all Android devices? Genuine question.

enraged_camel 10y ago
It's probably a little bit of both - they don't care as much when it comes to Android (since Android's "open" nature is one of its primary selling points) and they also don't control the entire supply chain like Apple does. The latter is important: at the end of the day, software can only be as secure as the hardware on which it is installed. For example if someone can tamper with the hardware random number generator then your crypto becomes compromised.
CalChris 10y ago
Yes, IMHO they know. Their Chrome security model was required reading in CS 261. https://people.eecs.berkeley.edu/~raluca/cs261-f15/ https://people.eecs.berkeley.edu/~raluca/cs261-f15/ But to me, they seem to be trying to find a moderate level of security with a profitable cost of goods. It doesn't seem that their heart is in it the way Apple's is with the Enclave. iOS is still breakable at the nation state level but well that's quite a high bar. Nation states are breakable at the nation state level.
- alexpersian 10y ago
  Do you have a source on the "breakable at the nation state level"? Last I heard they've only been able to compromise models before the 6.
  - krallja 10y ago
    "Breakable" and "have been broken" are different budgets.
izacus 10y ago
Mmm? Secure enclave is present on most Android devices and is mandatory since Android 6.0. (It's just called something else.) Historically Android has been lagging behind a bit from iOS devices when it comes to security, but Pixels and their software have a very similar security model and design (with some exceptions - less granularity with file-based encryption and some other mostly minor details). Non Google devices however are usually significantly less secure - not so much due to Android design, as due to manufacturers deliberately disabling Android's security featuers (e.g. only Pixel actually uses dm-verity at this moment if I remember correctly), refusing to update them, building devices with bad trustzone drivers... etc. If you keep to the 1st party (Google-branded) devices like in iOS world, you're mostly ok.
- CalChris 10y ago
  Yes, they're using the ARM Trusted Execution Environment rather than a separate Enclave chip with its separate OS (L4). Apple is an ARM architecture licensee, designing their own compatible chips. So the TEE would have been an available path (compatibility is still required, no?) but they instead went the extra yard with a separate Enclave chip. As their white paper details, they also go to insane levels with that chip and moreover with its communications rather than just trust the TEE within an ARM chip and call it a day.
  - izacus 10y ago
    Yes, indeed they went above and beyond - probably because they also need to defend not only against external threats, but against the user of the device himself to keep the walled garden intact.
    - CalChris 10y ago
      Yes (dunno why all the downvotes) but Apple went even further than the walled garden would require. They could have easily left an Apple backdoor. But they encrypt the protocol going over wires to/from the Enclave. They go insanely far rather than sufficiently far. Yeah, nation state level attacks will still work, especially if they have the phone. But with Android it's not nation state level. It's corporate level and maybe less if they have the phone.
acover 10y ago
It feels like users don't care about security. Nearly all Android phones are not running a supported OS.[1] As an Android user it appears my only choice is a custom ROM or buying a new device every 2 years. [1] - https://developer.android.com/about/dashboards/index.html#Platform https://developer.android.com/about/dashboards/index.html#Pl...
- AsyncAwait 10y ago
  If you go with the Pixel, which is basically the iPhone of Android, you'll get a similar to iOS update experience.
  - acover 10y ago
    You are mistaken. The pixel has the same 2 year support length of the Nexus series. iPhones are typically supported for 4 years.
    - AlfonsoP 10y ago
      Nitpick: Pixel has 3 years of security updates, and 2 years of Android OS updates.
    - AsyncAwait 10y ago
      I think you get something like 3 years, not as good as iOS, but by the 4th year, you only get a very crippled version of the newest iOS anyways.
FT_intern 10y ago
I would guess that it is tougher to secure the OS when you don't own the hardware, although I don't know enough about this to comment
- bryanbuckley 10y ago
  Agreed. Apple's vertical integration is really nice here. As an Android OEM it's tough to have to consider all the trade-offs between different HW vendors (best HW for battery/performance may not be so great for security or software support, etc) versus being a consumer of some internal group.

Do they don't know/care about security, or is it simply the case that it is hard to have something like the secure enclave across all Android devices? Genuine question.

enraged_camel 10y ago

It's probably a little bit of both - they don't care as much when it comes to Android (since Android's "open" nature is one of its primary selling points) and they also don't control the entire supply chain like Apple does. The latter is important: at the end of the day, software can only be as secure as the hardware on which it is installed. For example if someone can tamper with the hardware random number generator then your crypto becomes compromised.

CalChris 10y ago

Yes, IMHO they know. Their Chrome security model was required reading in CS 261. https://people.eecs.berkeley.edu/~raluca/cs261-f15/ https://people.eecs.berkeley.edu/~raluca/cs261-f15/ But to me, they seem to be trying to find a moderate level of security with a profitable cost of goods. It doesn't seem that their heart is in it the way Apple's is with the Enclave. iOS is still breakable at the nation state level but well that's quite a high bar. Nation states are breakable at the nation state level.

alexpersian 10y ago
Do you have a source on the "breakable at the nation state level"? Last I heard they've only been able to compromise models before the 6.
- krallja 10y ago
  "Breakable" and "have been broken" are different budgets.

izacus 10y ago

Mmm? Secure enclave is present on most Android devices and is mandatory since Android 6.0. (It's just called something else.) Historically Android has been lagging behind a bit from iOS devices when it comes to security, but Pixels and their software have a very similar security model and design (with some exceptions - less granularity with file-based encryption and some other mostly minor details). Non Google devices however are usually significantly less secure - not so much due to Android design, as due to manufacturers deliberately disabling Android's security featuers (e.g. only Pixel actually uses dm-verity at this moment if I remember correctly), refusing to update them, building devices with bad trustzone drivers... etc. If you keep to the 1st party (Google-branded) devices like in iOS world, you're mostly ok.

CalChris 10y ago
Yes, they're using the ARM Trusted Execution Environment rather than a separate Enclave chip with its separate OS (L4). Apple is an ARM architecture licensee, designing their own compatible chips. So the TEE would have been an available path (compatibility is still required, no?) but they instead went the extra yard with a separate Enclave chip. As their white paper details, they also go to insane levels with that chip and moreover with its communications rather than just trust the TEE within an ARM chip and call it a day.
- izacus 10y ago
  Yes, indeed they went above and beyond - probably because they also need to defend not only against external threats, but against the user of the device himself to keep the walled garden intact.
  - CalChris 10y ago
    Yes (dunno why all the downvotes) but Apple went even further than the walled garden would require. They could have easily left an Apple backdoor. But they encrypt the protocol going over wires to/from the Enclave. They go insanely far rather than sufficiently far. Yeah, nation state level attacks will still work, especially if they have the phone. But with Android it's not nation state level. It's corporate level and maybe less if they have the phone.

acover 10y ago

It feels like users don't care about security. Nearly all Android phones are not running a supported OS.[1] As an Android user it appears my only choice is a custom ROM or buying a new device every 2 years. [1] - https://developer.android.com/about/dashboards/index.html#Platform https://developer.android.com/about/dashboards/index.html#Pl...

AsyncAwait 10y ago
If you go with the Pixel, which is basically the iPhone of Android, you'll get a similar to iOS update experience.
- acover 10y ago
  You are mistaken. The pixel has the same 2 year support length of the Nexus series. iPhones are typically supported for 4 years.
  - AlfonsoP 10y ago
    Nitpick: Pixel has 3 years of security updates, and 2 years of Android OS updates.
  - AsyncAwait 10y ago
    I think you get something like 3 years, not as good as iOS, but by the 4th year, you only get a very crippled version of the newest iOS anyways.

FT_intern 10y ago

I would guess that it is tougher to secure the OS when you don't own the hardware, although I don't know enough about this to comment

bryanbuckley 10y ago
Agreed. Apple's vertical integration is really nice here. As an Android OEM it's tough to have to consider all the trade-offs between different HW vendors (best HW for battery/performance may not be so great for security or software support, etc) versus being a consumer of some internal group.