6 ms·

It reinforces the notion that women are objects to be paid for? Sexist or not, this seems highly inappropriate for a work outing, and definitely adds more evid

by Eridrus 10y ago

It reinforces the notion that women are objects to be paid for? Sexist or not, this seems highly inappropriate for a work outing, and definitely adds more evidence to how Uber does not strive to have an inclusive culture.

dukeluke 10y ago
This post is actually an example of a conflict between multiculturalism and equality. In many cultures, this bar is acceptable, and in others it is seen as demeaning. When there is a conflict between the two, how do they choose what is right and wrong?
- Eridrus 10y ago
  IMO equality trumps multiculturalism. It's the same argument about whether tolerant people should tolerate intolerance, and to me the answer is that they should not. I expect that this is the side corporate America will come down on as well since discrimination is quite common in a lot of cultures including our own.
  - ThomPete 10y ago
    Equality in what though? With regards to tolerant people tolerating intolerance well thats kind of self defeating isn't it? If you already have defined who you don't tolerate you are exactly the people you claim to be against. But how would you make that work? I am intollerant of lazy people, of islamic terrorism and entitled people. Am I on your list? Is it ok now for you to intollerant of me? It's an unfortunate reality that tolerance is such a misunderstood concept because it gives us stances like yours who assume things are simpler than they actually are.
ThomPete 10y ago
How on earth do you get to that conclusion? I get that uber is a toxic environment but it's not because they go to an escort bar and they don't go to an escort bar because the environment is toxic. Plenty of people do that and they work in great companies. They mostly do it because they are men and some men like to do that. It sounds more like the a priori acceptance of some feminist branding of sex for money as turning women into objects to be paid for. Everyone who takes money to do something for others are assets for them. That's why they pay the money. Whether thats working in an escort bar or working 100 hours a week in a startup, the only difference is that one job is paid much much better.
- tptacek 10y ago
  Again: normal people do go to strip clubs (not so sure about "escort bars"). But normal companies don't have what are effectively company outings to strip clubs, and plenty of companies have gotten in trouble for doing that.
  - ThomPete 10y ago
    Sure they've gotten in trouble but the claim is that it's sexist. Thats not why they got in trouble though.
    - tptacek 10y ago
      It is sexist in exactly the same manner as the (I think you thought deliberately absurd) example you provided downthread, in which a company held business meetings in the men's bathroom.
      - ThomPete 10y ago
        I didn't say they held business meetings in the bathroom but nice strawman. I said that men meet and talk in bathrooms which excludes women at places where there are very few of them. So it wasn't deliberately absurd it was just deliberately different to make a point about the absurdity of the argument that excluding women from being in the company with men from their company is sexist per defition. Furthermore where in the article does it say that they were conducting a business meeting at the strip club? Nowhere what so ever. So you are basing your argument on things that didn't happen.
        tptacek 10y ago
        I didn't say that you did. Again: I know we disagree about a lot of this stuff, but I'm taking pains not to jab at you, and would appreciate if you'd reciprocate. It is in fact the case that if a company has a systemic practice of making business decisions in the men's bathroom, women working at those companies will have a cause of action against that company. Further: I made clear to you downthread that on the matter of whether the trip to the club was a business matter at all, reasonable people might disagree. I conceded up front that you might have an argument there --- I strongly disagree with that argument, but it's one you can reasonably make.

by Eridrus 10y ago

dukeluke 10y ago

This post is actually an example of a conflict between multiculturalism and equality. In many cultures, this bar is acceptable, and in others it is seen as demeaning. When there is a conflict between the two, how do they choose what is right and wrong?

Eridrus 10y ago
IMO equality trumps multiculturalism. It's the same argument about whether tolerant people should tolerate intolerance, and to me the answer is that they should not. I expect that this is the side corporate America will come down on as well since discrimination is quite common in a lot of cultures including our own.
- ThomPete 10y ago
  Equality in what though? With regards to tolerant people tolerating intolerance well thats kind of self defeating isn't it? If you already have defined who you don't tolerate you are exactly the people you claim to be against. But how would you make that work? I am intollerant of lazy people, of islamic terrorism and entitled people. Am I on your list? Is it ok now for you to intollerant of me? It's an unfortunate reality that tolerance is such a misunderstood concept because it gives us stances like yours who assume things are simpler than they actually are.

ThomPete 10y ago

How on earth do you get to that conclusion? I get that uber is a toxic environment but it's not because they go to an escort bar and they don't go to an escort bar because the environment is toxic. Plenty of people do that and they work in great companies. They mostly do it because they are men and some men like to do that. It sounds more like the a priori acceptance of some feminist branding of sex for money as turning women into objects to be paid for. Everyone who takes money to do something for others are assets for them. That's why they pay the money. Whether thats working in an escort bar or working 100 hours a week in a startup, the only difference is that one job is paid much much better.

tptacek 10y ago
Again: normal people do go to strip clubs (not so sure about "escort bars"). But normal companies don't have what are effectively company outings to strip clubs, and plenty of companies have gotten in trouble for doing that.
- ThomPete 10y ago
  Sure they've gotten in trouble but the claim is that it's sexist. Thats not why they got in trouble though.
  - tptacek 10y ago
    It is sexist in exactly the same manner as the (I think you thought deliberately absurd) example you provided downthread, in which a company held business meetings in the men's bathroom.
    - ThomPete 10y ago
      I didn't say they held business meetings in the bathroom but nice strawman. I said that men meet and talk in bathrooms which excludes women at places where there are very few of them. So it wasn't deliberately absurd it was just deliberately different to make a point about the absurdity of the argument that excluding women from being in the company with men from their company is sexist per defition. Furthermore where in the article does it say that they were conducting a business meeting at the strip club? Nowhere what so ever. So you are basing your argument on things that didn't happen.
      - tptacek 10y ago
        I didn't say that you did. Again: I know we disagree about a lot of this stuff, but I'm taking pains not to jab at you, and would appreciate if you'd reciprocate. It is in fact the case that if a company has a systemic practice of making business decisions in the men's bathroom, women working at those companies will have a cause of action against that company. Further: I made clear to you downthread that on the matter of whether the trip to the club was a business matter at all, reasonable people might disagree. I conceded up front that you might have an argument there --- I strongly disagree with that argument, but it's one you can reasonably make.