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I was eager to call out the clickbait here, but actually it's not as I expected. The karaoke-escort incident is apparently another piece of evidence that the co

I was eager to call out the clickbait here, but actually it's not as I expected. The karaoke-escort incident is apparently another piece of evidence that the company's sexism problem is endemic and comes from the top. In other news, they keep getting their cars involved in accidents. Maybe they programmed the autonomous driving system to get distracted by nice girls on the sidewalk.

sidcool 10y ago
The first part of your comment above was perfectly logical.
ThomPete 10y ago
Whats sexist about going to an excort bar?
- Eridrus 10y ago
  It reinforces the notion that women are objects to be paid for? Sexist or not, this seems highly inappropriate for a work outing, and definitely adds more evidence to how Uber does not strive to have an inclusive culture.
  - dukeluke 10y ago
    This post is actually an example of a conflict between multiculturalism and equality. In many cultures, this bar is acceptable, and in others it is seen as demeaning. When there is a conflict between the two, how do they choose what is right and wrong?
    - Eridrus 10y ago
      IMO equality trumps multiculturalism. It's the same argument about whether tolerant people should tolerate intolerance, and to me the answer is that they should not. I expect that this is the side corporate America will come down on as well since discrimination is quite common in a lot of cultures including our own.
      - ThomPete 10y ago
        Equality in what though? With regards to tolerant people tolerating intolerance well thats kind of self defeating isn't it? If you already have defined who you don't tolerate you are exactly the people you claim to be against. But how would you make that work? I am intollerant of lazy people, of islamic terrorism and entitled people. Am I on your list? Is it ok now for you to intollerant of me? It's an unfortunate reality that tolerance is such a misunderstood concept because it gives us stances like yours who assume things are simpler than they actually are.
  - ThomPete 10y ago
    How on earth do you get to that conclusion? I get that uber is a toxic environment but it's not because they go to an escort bar and they don't go to an escort bar because the environment is toxic. Plenty of people do that and they work in great companies. They mostly do it because they are men and some men like to do that. It sounds more like the a priori acceptance of some feminist branding of sex for money as turning women into objects to be paid for. Everyone who takes money to do something for others are assets for them. That's why they pay the money. Whether thats working in an escort bar or working 100 hours a week in a startup, the only difference is that one job is paid much much better.
    - tptacek 10y ago
      Again: normal people do go to strip clubs (not so sure about "escort bars"). But normal companies don't have what are effectively company outings to strip clubs, and plenty of companies have gotten in trouble for doing that.
      - ThomPete 10y ago
        Sure they've gotten in trouble but the claim is that it's sexist. Thats not why they got in trouble though.
        tptacek 10y ago
        It is sexist in exactly the same manner as the (I think you thought deliberately absurd) example you provided downthread, in which a company held business meetings in the men's bathroom.
        ThomPete 10y ago
        I didn't say they held business meetings in the bathroom but nice strawman. I said that men meet and talk in bathrooms which excludes women at places where there are very few of them. So it wasn't deliberately absurd it was just deliberately different to make a point about the absurdity of the argument that excluding women from being in the company with men from their company is sexist per defition. Furthermore where in the article does it say that they were conducting a business meeting at the strip club? Nowhere what so ever. So you are basing your argument on things that didn't happen.
- tptacek 10y ago
  Stipulate (gingerly) that an individual or group of friends going to an escort bar isn't sexist. The problem is doing it as a company group function. If you reread the story, you'll see that we know about this because there was a woman executive from Uber in the group, and she was upset at being dragged along. This has come up at a number of other companies (usual context: strip clubs). Stipulate that going to a strip club isn't sexist, but it's clear (to me at least, and, if I need to add this: to the lawyers) that it's sexist to generate social and professional pressure for women employees either to go to a strip club or to miss out on professional functions because attending a strip club is untenable.
  - ThomPete 10y ago
    I am sure you think it's an argument and I am well aware that in the liberal media you would find much support for this but it's complete and utter nonsense to me. There is nothing that indicates she couldn't have said no or that she was pressured, that se feels pressured is another things but it has nothing to with sexism. The continuing expanding of the definition of sexism is the real issue here and it's unfortunately being misused in many situations by both women and men.
    - tptacek 10y ago
      First, I'd appreciate it if you could dial civility up just a little bit. Even among friends at a bar, I'd be taken aback by a retort like "I'm sure you think that's an argument". Second, the issue here is much simpler than you're implying it is. You can't have a work function among executives at a strip club. It's not hard to see how doing that would exclude women. That's what this particular Uber executive is complaining about. If you'd like to argue that this was in no way a work function, I think we'd be on solid ground to debate something where reasonable people might disagree. I'm less convinced that it's reasonable to disagree about whether companies should be allowed in practice to stage work events at strip clubs.
      - ThomPete 10y ago
        I am not sure what you mean with civility. It wasn't meant to be agressive. I literally meant I am sure you see it as an argument. Not sure why going to a stripclub would exclude women. In what way does it do that? And even if it did it does not mean it's sexist. Furthermore the idea that important business talk happens at strip clubs is hard to see and that would be the primary reason for claiming stripclubs are excluding women. Otherwise mens clubs, golfing with your buddies and so many other things might as well be considered sexist. Second of all if you really want to make that argument then you need to ban gender divided bathrooms at the executive level if there are too many men. Because a lot of talk happens in the bathroom too and there women are actually excluded to participate. This is a real issue and the chances of work being discussed here is many times higher. So to claim that an occasional stripclub visit is excluding anyone and/or sexist is IMO a rather unsubstantiated claim. I am well aware that it's the source of many tabloids and you can get in trouble for it but it has nothing to do with sexism.

sidcool 10y ago

The first part of your comment above was perfectly logical.

ThomPete 10y ago

Whats sexist about going to an excort bar?

Eridrus 10y ago
It reinforces the notion that women are objects to be paid for? Sexist or not, this seems highly inappropriate for a work outing, and definitely adds more evidence to how Uber does not strive to have an inclusive culture.
- dukeluke 10y ago
  This post is actually an example of a conflict between multiculturalism and equality. In many cultures, this bar is acceptable, and in others it is seen as demeaning. When there is a conflict between the two, how do they choose what is right and wrong?
  - Eridrus 10y ago
    IMO equality trumps multiculturalism. It's the same argument about whether tolerant people should tolerate intolerance, and to me the answer is that they should not. I expect that this is the side corporate America will come down on as well since discrimination is quite common in a lot of cultures including our own.
    - ThomPete 10y ago
      Equality in what though? With regards to tolerant people tolerating intolerance well thats kind of self defeating isn't it? If you already have defined who you don't tolerate you are exactly the people you claim to be against. But how would you make that work? I am intollerant of lazy people, of islamic terrorism and entitled people. Am I on your list? Is it ok now for you to intollerant of me? It's an unfortunate reality that tolerance is such a misunderstood concept because it gives us stances like yours who assume things are simpler than they actually are.
- ThomPete 10y ago
  How on earth do you get to that conclusion? I get that uber is a toxic environment but it's not because they go to an escort bar and they don't go to an escort bar because the environment is toxic. Plenty of people do that and they work in great companies. They mostly do it because they are men and some men like to do that. It sounds more like the a priori acceptance of some feminist branding of sex for money as turning women into objects to be paid for. Everyone who takes money to do something for others are assets for them. That's why they pay the money. Whether thats working in an escort bar or working 100 hours a week in a startup, the only difference is that one job is paid much much better.
  - tptacek 10y ago
    Again: normal people do go to strip clubs (not so sure about "escort bars"). But normal companies don't have what are effectively company outings to strip clubs, and plenty of companies have gotten in trouble for doing that.
    - ThomPete 10y ago
      Sure they've gotten in trouble but the claim is that it's sexist. Thats not why they got in trouble though.
      - tptacek 10y ago
        It is sexist in exactly the same manner as the (I think you thought deliberately absurd) example you provided downthread, in which a company held business meetings in the men's bathroom.
        ThomPete 10y ago
        I didn't say they held business meetings in the bathroom but nice strawman. I said that men meet and talk in bathrooms which excludes women at places where there are very few of them. So it wasn't deliberately absurd it was just deliberately different to make a point about the absurdity of the argument that excluding women from being in the company with men from their company is sexist per defition. Furthermore where in the article does it say that they were conducting a business meeting at the strip club? Nowhere what so ever. So you are basing your argument on things that didn't happen.
tptacek 10y ago
Stipulate (gingerly) that an individual or group of friends going to an escort bar isn't sexist. The problem is doing it as a company group function. If you reread the story, you'll see that we know about this because there was a woman executive from Uber in the group, and she was upset at being dragged along. This has come up at a number of other companies (usual context: strip clubs). Stipulate that going to a strip club isn't sexist, but it's clear (to me at least, and, if I need to add this: to the lawyers) that it's sexist to generate social and professional pressure for women employees either to go to a strip club or to miss out on professional functions because attending a strip club is untenable.
- ThomPete 10y ago
  I am sure you think it's an argument and I am well aware that in the liberal media you would find much support for this but it's complete and utter nonsense to me. There is nothing that indicates she couldn't have said no or that she was pressured, that se feels pressured is another things but it has nothing to with sexism. The continuing expanding of the definition of sexism is the real issue here and it's unfortunately being misused in many situations by both women and men.
  - tptacek 10y ago
    First, I'd appreciate it if you could dial civility up just a little bit. Even among friends at a bar, I'd be taken aback by a retort like "I'm sure you think that's an argument". Second, the issue here is much simpler than you're implying it is. You can't have a work function among executives at a strip club. It's not hard to see how doing that would exclude women. That's what this particular Uber executive is complaining about. If you'd like to argue that this was in no way a work function, I think we'd be on solid ground to debate something where reasonable people might disagree. I'm less convinced that it's reasonable to disagree about whether companies should be allowed in practice to stage work events at strip clubs.
    - ThomPete 10y ago
      I am not sure what you mean with civility. It wasn't meant to be agressive. I literally meant I am sure you see it as an argument. Not sure why going to a stripclub would exclude women. In what way does it do that? And even if it did it does not mean it's sexist. Furthermore the idea that important business talk happens at strip clubs is hard to see and that would be the primary reason for claiming stripclubs are excluding women. Otherwise mens clubs, golfing with your buddies and so many other things might as well be considered sexist. Second of all if you really want to make that argument then you need to ban gender divided bathrooms at the executive level if there are too many men. Because a lot of talk happens in the bathroom too and there women are actually excluded to participate. This is a real issue and the chances of work being discussed here is many times higher. So to claim that an occasional stripclub visit is excluding anyone and/or sexist is IMO a rather unsubstantiated claim. I am well aware that it's the source of many tabloids and you can get in trouble for it but it has nothing to do with sexism.