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> Suppose I were to write "slavery is economically beneficial, ...a bunch of evidence goes here...". Do you believe an intellectual discussion would result? T

• yummyfajitas 10y ago
  Not true. I might just be a utilitarian who for whatever reason believes that slavery produces more utility than other arrangements.
  • eastWestMath 10y ago
    That's exactly what he's addressing, utilitarians with messed up definitions of utility. Your head needs to be awfully far up your ass to come to the conclusion that slavery is good without questioning the principles that lead to that conclusion.
    • sillysaurus3 10y ago
      Your head needs to be awfully far up your ass to come to the conclusion You're not allowed to comment like this on HN.
      • yusee 10y ago
        Lesson learnt: Much better to defend slavery without ad hominem than use a bad word.
        • todd8 10y ago
          Well,yes. HN is one of those places where, as frustrating as it might be, the rules of discourse encourage thoughtful interchange. Here, we at least have the hope that we can be educated or enlightened, and in some cases we may be able to show others the errors in their thinking in a manner that doesn't close off communication.
          • eastWestMath 10y ago
            Exactly, you need to treat those jerk-offs advocating for feudalism with respect.
            • dang 10y ago
              You allowed yourself to be trolled into going on tilt in this thread. Please don't let that happen again. It makes for tedious flamewars.
        • dang 10y ago
          The real sin here is to post unsubstantive comments and get involved in tedious spats. Please don't do that.
      • eastWestMath 10y ago
        "You know, I think we need to reconsider the whole 'slavery is bad' thing. There could be economic benefits." "You've have your head up your ass." "Ohmygod, you can't talk like that here."
        • deleted 10y ago
          [deleted]
    • yummyfajitas 10y ago
      Utilitarianism defines utility as whatever people value. The hard part is interpersonal comparisons. Most arguments I can come up with are reasonably close to contemporary arguments for socialism or basic income. Do you consider those arguments (far more socially acceptable) to be similarly "messed up"? (Note that most of those who have advocated for slavery in recent years, e.g Obama and Rangell, did so from a socialist perspective. Slaves would serve the state, either as "volunteers" for social programs or in the military. I'm not the only one who finds the cases to be pretty close.)
      • eastWestMath 10y ago
        Do you only value white people's well being? Otherwise, if you actually knew anything about the history of slavery you'd have never had that thought. People aren't actually exaggerating about generational PTSD - splitting up over half of new families, corporal punishment, sexual abuse, the list goes on.
        • yummyfajitas 10y ago
          Scroll up. I didn't defend slavery on economic grounds. I argued that if someone did attempt to do so, the response to them is likely to be anti intellectual. I appreciate you supporting my case.
    • IanCal 10y ago
      They said economically beneficial, not good. This whole exchange seems to prove their point. I'd like to read arguments on both sides for the economic effects of, say, slavery in America. Did America benefit? If so, over what timescales? Were there benefits in the short term but the ongoing divisions now hurt the economy more? And I can wonder about these things while still not thinking it was good.
      • eastWestMath 10y ago
        That topic has actually been researched, the slave states had less developed economies than the northern states. For the same reason all feudal/slave states have underdeveloped economies. Of course, some people in this thread are probably ready to laud Hitler's economic acumen, while ignoring his economic gains were due to public spending building a war machine and taking Jewish people's stuff.
• mafribe 10y ago
  distortion of your ethics It's interesting to reflect on the fact that there were many slave revolts in antiquity, but the revolting slaves did not seek to abolish slavery, they merely wanted to stop being slaves and have their own slaves. In other words, even slaves had no problem with slavery as an institution. We also should always be aware that every serious discussion of slavery must begin with the question: what do you mean by "slavery", for the term is used in wildly different ways.
  • yardie 10y ago
    Could you give examples of this. Of the slave revolts I can remember in recent history none of them wanted to replace their masters. They just wanted out. But pondering further. If you have a successful revolt what do you believe the punishment for the perpetrators should be. Would death be a just punishment? What if the empowered slaves offered enslavement of their former masters as an alternative?
    • mafribe 10y ago
      Could you give examples of this. Example of what? The standard text on the subject [1] says there are no known instances of slave revolts in antiquity that sought to abolish slavery as an institution. If you know counterexamples, I'd be interested to learn about them. Would death be a just punishment? What if ... I can't see either being particularly productive. It's really very simple -- albeit unpleasant: there is a reason why some small group of people manage to enslave a large number of people: slavers are better than slaves. Better at cooperation, better at conflict avoidance, better at socially organising violence, better at dividing-and-conquering their enemies, better at science, better at engineering, better at teaching their children, better at forming and maintaining society. Slaves should learn from slavers, not kill them. But learning is hard, and not immediately emotionally gratifying. The Haitian slave revolution of the late 18th, early 19th century lead to immediate genocide of the remaining whites and and mixed race inhabitants [2]. Haiti, which was once the wealthiest Caribbean island has been a basket case ever since. Coincidentally, after the successful revolution, the black leadership reinstituted slavery, albeit symbolically abolishing the whip [3]. The Haitian slave rebellion teaches us a large number of lessons about humanity, most not very palatable. [1] Realencyclopädie der classischen Altertumswissenschaft https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Realencyclop%C3%A4die_der_classischen_Altertumswissenschaft https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Realencyclop%C3%A4die_der_clas... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1804_Haiti_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1804_Haiti_massacre [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haitian_Revolution#Free_republic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haitian_Revolution#Free_republ...
• IanCal 10y ago
  I think you're rather making their point. Something could be both evil and economically beneficial, and while the statement only mentioned the economy you assume that they have a bad way of looking at the world. We should be able to have a reasoned, intellectual discussion about the economic side of slavery whilst still agreeing it shouldn't be done.
  • IanCal 10y ago
    I think the point made in this sketch is pretty relevant: https://youtu.be/owI7DOeO_yg https://youtu.be/owI7DOeO_yg