3 ms·

I would have preferred them to vote the other way, but I'm trying to do a reality check here. Given that on HTTPS sites it's just the domain name + timestamp, a

I would have preferred them to vote the other way, but I'm trying to do a reality check here. Given that on HTTPS sites it's just the domain name + timestamp, and that more and more sites are transitioning to HTTPS, is the mere domain name and timestamp really that useful? I can imagine it being useful to know you order pizzas at 7pm Thursdays, but how useful is it actually to know you e.g. browse Amazon 2pm Mondays, or use YouTube 10pm Saturdays, or send emails with Gmail every hour of every day? They have no idea what you're buying or watching or sending. (eBay seems to be the major exception since it's HTTP.)

intopieces 10y ago
If it weren't useful, why would ISPs spend money lobbying to get access to it?
- wfunction 10y ago
  I don't know, that's why I'm asking. I'm wondering if they're just racing against the HTTPS clock or something?
rco8786 10y ago
You could tell a lot about me just based on domain names I frequent.
- wfunction 10y ago
  How much of it would be devastating if (1) your closest friends and/or family members found out? (2) more distant acquaintances found out? And how likely is it that each of those would happen under a data breach? (Since presumably most people don't go looking inside illegal data dumps trying to find out the most intimate secrets about their friends' or family members' life for no good reason.)
jdavis703 10y ago
Let's give a few examples of information they could find about you: Visits nytimes.com, huffingtonpost.com and cnn.com: user is interested in current events and is probably liberal Visits webmd.com and kaiserpermanente.org: user is probably sick I'm sure you can extrapolate further. Now let's say I'm a gay person growing up in a conservative house and ads start popping up for all the family members on our shared IP for gay dating sites. That might be problematic for certain people.
- wfunction 10y ago
  Okay thanks, let me try to dissect this a bit: 1. You fall in the category of, "What if <my closest family members or friends> find out private information XYZ about me, based on which domain names I visit? My life would be ruined." 2. You don't fall in that category. Group 1 has real fears. For some of them, even knowing whether they're home might be a life threat, and I understand that. But I don't imagine ISPs are fighting so hard just for the sake of targeting group 1; I imagine they might even avoid them if they could, for legal fears. They must be reaping immense benefits from gathering domain name browsing history about group 2 as well, and I assume those in group 2 are still terrified at the thought personally (as opposed to only because they're terrified of what would happen to group 1). So let's leave the first group aside in this discussion. I'm trying to figure out what the most serious (but realistic) things are that people in group 2 are risking, and how ISPs are reaping profits from them. For example, ID theft or burglary is something that can happen to anybody. How much is your ISP recording & selling when you're home increasing the risk of burglary? etc. Also: if you think group 1 is the vast majority of people and group 2 is the real minority hear, I'd be interested in hearing that argument as well, since I really don't have data on this (data would be welcome). My current instinct is group 2 is the majority.
  - jdavis703 10y ago
    For the record while I'm for protecting online consumer privacy, I'm not terrified of it being violated either. I was simply giving examples of how it might be problematic. I work in ad tech, so as a matter of principle I don't have any ad or privacy blockers turned on. But even in my personal life I always keep my blinds open, I don't care if my neighbors see me living my personal life. I also keep all my Facebook posts public, etc. But I realize that there are all kinds of situations I can and can't imagine where people need more privacy. My own life situation could even change such that I feel the need for more privacy. That's why I believe that people should by default have a right to privacy, but give it away only if they so chose.

intopieces 10y ago

If it weren't useful, why would ISPs spend money lobbying to get access to it?

wfunction 10y ago
I don't know, that's why I'm asking. I'm wondering if they're just racing against the HTTPS clock or something?

rco8786 10y ago

You could tell a lot about me just based on domain names I frequent.

wfunction 10y ago
How much of it would be devastating if (1) your closest friends and/or family members found out? (2) more distant acquaintances found out? And how likely is it that each of those would happen under a data breach? (Since presumably most people don't go looking inside illegal data dumps trying to find out the most intimate secrets about their friends' or family members' life for no good reason.)

jdavis703 10y ago

Let's give a few examples of information they could find about you: Visits nytimes.com, huffingtonpost.com and cnn.com: user is interested in current events and is probably liberal Visits webmd.com and kaiserpermanente.org: user is probably sick I'm sure you can extrapolate further. Now let's say I'm a gay person growing up in a conservative house and ads start popping up for all the family members on our shared IP for gay dating sites. That might be problematic for certain people.

wfunction 10y ago
Okay thanks, let me try to dissect this a bit: 1. You fall in the category of, "What if <my closest family members or friends> find out private information XYZ about me, based on which domain names I visit? My life would be ruined." 2. You don't fall in that category. Group 1 has real fears. For some of them, even knowing whether they're home might be a life threat, and I understand that. But I don't imagine ISPs are fighting so hard just for the sake of targeting group 1; I imagine they might even avoid them if they could, for legal fears. They must be reaping immense benefits from gathering domain name browsing history about group 2 as well, and I assume those in group 2 are still terrified at the thought personally (as opposed to only because they're terrified of what would happen to group 1). So let's leave the first group aside in this discussion. I'm trying to figure out what the most serious (but realistic) things are that people in group 2 are risking, and how ISPs are reaping profits from them. For example, ID theft or burglary is something that can happen to anybody. How much is your ISP recording & selling when you're home increasing the risk of burglary? etc. Also: if you think group 1 is the vast majority of people and group 2 is the real minority hear, I'd be interested in hearing that argument as well, since I really don't have data on this (data would be welcome). My current instinct is group 2 is the majority.
- jdavis703 10y ago
  For the record while I'm for protecting online consumer privacy, I'm not terrified of it being violated either. I was simply giving examples of how it might be problematic. I work in ad tech, so as a matter of principle I don't have any ad or privacy blockers turned on. But even in my personal life I always keep my blinds open, I don't care if my neighbors see me living my personal life. I also keep all my Facebook posts public, etc. But I realize that there are all kinds of situations I can and can't imagine where people need more privacy. My own life situation could even change such that I feel the need for more privacy. That's why I believe that people should by default have a right to privacy, but give it away only if they so chose.