5 ms·

These are claims from "Silent Spring" but many sources argue that most of it was entirely made up by Carlson[1], with no scientific basis. Personally I think t

These are claims from "Silent Spring" but many sources argue that most of it was entirely made up by Carlson[1], with no scientific basis. Personally I think those are overly broad claims and demand strong studies and proofs. [1]: http://scienceheroes.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=309&Itemid=263

throwaway91111 10y ago
Yea, but we also have plenty of pesticides that aren't tainted. Why not use them?
- gumby 10y ago
  Your statement may be true but doesn't refute the post you were replying to. Rather it is orthogonal. In addition, if the "taint" is incorrect then DDT could be a wonder. (Actually I am not DDT fan, but I do know how to make an argument)
  - astrodust 10y ago
    That's less an argument and more a "what if?" assertion.
  - throwaway91111 10y ago
    I mean, I wasn't trying to refute the parent comment; it is true that we should know more about DDT.
- Banthum 10y ago
  My understanding is that they're all some combination of more dangerous to humans, less effective, and more expensive. You actually end up spraying more pesticide, or denying the chemical to poor people who want to dust it inside their houses. Is that incorrect?
  - scardine 10y ago
    I believe you made a fair portrait of the current situation.
- DrScump 10y ago
  plenty of pesticides that aren't tainted ... as far as we know... now. Sometimes, adverse effects of pesticides aren't known (widely enough, anyway) until decades later. Dursban comes to mind and still pops up in new papers.
cjensen 10y ago
Your linked article does not say anything about the scientific basis of Carlson's claims. I will say Carlson's claims were overdone. The book title, "Silent Spring", implies the extinction of all songbirds, and most songbirds were not affected by DDT. But here's the facts: all birds which eat fish or other birds had a massive dieback which reversed in the 1970s. For example, consider Bald Eagles and Golden Eagles. The former eats fish and died off; the latter eats mammals and did much better. It wasn't just one species: every fish-eating bird died off: cormorants, pelicans, Bald Eagles, egrets. If DDT does not explain this die-off and recovery, what do you propose to explain this preferential near-extinction? The "DDT is Innocent" train of thought is, in my view, wishful thinking on the part of some who want environmentalists to always be wrong. They were right on this one.
- scardine 10y ago
  The linked article is very unbiased, but it links to positions from both camps. > Studies published in Poultry Science found chicken eggs almost completely unaffected by high dosages of DDT. > In 1998, Royal Society for the Protection of Birds researcher Rhys Green published a study in the Proceedings of the Royal Society B which found that eggshell thinning of some bird species had begun 50 years before the introduction of DDT. Despite some studies linking a byproduct (DDE) to moderate egg thinning in sensitive raptors, the ban was an overreaction. There is a lot of FUD surrounding DDT, and it costs lives. Spraying DDT on the internal walls in my country would save hundreds of lives.
  - cjensen 10y ago
    You have not provided an alternate explanation for the population crash and subsequent recovery of piscivore birds. I note that DDT perfectly explains it. The study by Rhys Green is entirely misrepresented. He studied four species of thrush. Thrush don't eat fish, nor do they eat other birds. That literally supports what I said: DDT affected specific species of birds based on whether or not they consumed environmentally-concentrated sources of DDT. Nor have you explained why DDT alone, rather than a less-stable alternative, must be used. I'm sorry, but you have bought into FUD. We all do that sometimes. Today was your turn. I'm not looking forward to my next turn.
adamsea 10y ago
So, the Wikipedia article on DDT has like 6 different citations/links on DDT and egg shell thinning in birds of prey: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dichlorodiphenyltrichloroethane#Eggshell_thinning https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dichlorodiphenyltrichloroethan... http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/232 http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/232 http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1046/j.1474-919X.2003.00132.x/abstract;jsessionid=D3AD173B0F28B5C597A507162C401F97.f02t0173747.2016.1173766 http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1046/j.1474-919X.2003.... Many are behind a paywall but here are some with abstracts we can read: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0742841397001059?via%3Dihub http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0742841397... http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/23273747.2016.1173766 http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/23273747.2016.11... Also, there may well be a valid debate about when or when not to use DDT, but the link you cite does not inspire confidence.
- scardine 10y ago
  I'm not saying DDT is harmless. But please, look at the baby from my country on the end of the article: I would ratter have a few hundred less raptors than a few thousand humans crippled for life or dead.
- joecool1029 10y ago
  http://junkscience.com/1999/07/100-things-you-should-know-about-ddt/ http://junkscience.com/1999/07/100-things-you-should-know-ab... Are these enough citations to bury yours with?
lkrubner 10y ago
Scardine, the book Silent Spring was published in 1962. That is 55 years ago. Since then there have been thousands of studies about the damage done by DDT. Start here: https://www.google.com/search?q=damage+by+ddt&oq=damage+by+ddt&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l2.2288j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8 https://www.google.com/search?q=damage+by+ddt&oq=damage+by+d... You can easily track down a few dozen studies that will inform you about the damage. There is a reason why nearly all the governments of the developed nations have moved to block or limit the use of DDT.
- DrScump 10y ago
  Well, sure, if your query is limited to bad effects of anything, you'll get disproportionately negative results. Try this, for that matter: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=climate+change+due+to+ddt https://duckduckgo.com/?q=climate+change+due+to+ddt or https://duckduckgo.com/?q=damage+to+bagels+due+to+ddt https://duckduckgo.com/?q=damage+to+bagels+due+to+ddt

throwaway91111 10y ago

Yea, but we also have plenty of pesticides that aren't tainted. Why not use them?

gumby 10y ago
Your statement may be true but doesn't refute the post you were replying to. Rather it is orthogonal. In addition, if the "taint" is incorrect then DDT could be a wonder. (Actually I am not DDT fan, but I do know how to make an argument)
- astrodust 10y ago
  That's less an argument and more a "what if?" assertion.
- throwaway91111 10y ago
  I mean, I wasn't trying to refute the parent comment; it is true that we should know more about DDT.
Banthum 10y ago
My understanding is that they're all some combination of more dangerous to humans, less effective, and more expensive. You actually end up spraying more pesticide, or denying the chemical to poor people who want to dust it inside their houses. Is that incorrect?
- scardine 10y ago
  I believe you made a fair portrait of the current situation.
DrScump 10y ago
plenty of pesticides that aren't tainted ... as far as we know... now. Sometimes, adverse effects of pesticides aren't known (widely enough, anyway) until decades later. Dursban comes to mind and still pops up in new papers.

cjensen 10y ago

Your linked article does not say anything about the scientific basis of Carlson's claims. I will say Carlson's claims were overdone. The book title, "Silent Spring", implies the extinction of all songbirds, and most songbirds were not affected by DDT. But here's the facts: all birds which eat fish or other birds had a massive dieback which reversed in the 1970s. For example, consider Bald Eagles and Golden Eagles. The former eats fish and died off; the latter eats mammals and did much better. It wasn't just one species: every fish-eating bird died off: cormorants, pelicans, Bald Eagles, egrets. If DDT does not explain this die-off and recovery, what do you propose to explain this preferential near-extinction? The "DDT is Innocent" train of thought is, in my view, wishful thinking on the part of some who want environmentalists to always be wrong. They were right on this one.

scardine 10y ago
The linked article is very unbiased, but it links to positions from both camps. > Studies published in Poultry Science found chicken eggs almost completely unaffected by high dosages of DDT. > In 1998, Royal Society for the Protection of Birds researcher Rhys Green published a study in the Proceedings of the Royal Society B which found that eggshell thinning of some bird species had begun 50 years before the introduction of DDT. Despite some studies linking a byproduct (DDE) to moderate egg thinning in sensitive raptors, the ban was an overreaction. There is a lot of FUD surrounding DDT, and it costs lives. Spraying DDT on the internal walls in my country would save hundreds of lives.
- cjensen 10y ago
  You have not provided an alternate explanation for the population crash and subsequent recovery of piscivore birds. I note that DDT perfectly explains it. The study by Rhys Green is entirely misrepresented. He studied four species of thrush. Thrush don't eat fish, nor do they eat other birds. That literally supports what I said: DDT affected specific species of birds based on whether or not they consumed environmentally-concentrated sources of DDT. Nor have you explained why DDT alone, rather than a less-stable alternative, must be used. I'm sorry, but you have bought into FUD. We all do that sometimes. Today was your turn. I'm not looking forward to my next turn.

adamsea 10y ago

So, the Wikipedia article on DDT has like 6 different citations/links on DDT and egg shell thinning in birds of prey: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dichlorodiphenyltrichloroethane#Eggshell_thinning https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dichlorodiphenyltrichloroethan... http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/232 http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/232 http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1046/j.1474-919X.2003.00132.x/abstract;jsessionid=D3AD173B0F28B5C597A507162C401F97.f02t0173747.2016.1173766 http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1046/j.1474-919X.2003.... Many are behind a paywall but here are some with abstracts we can read: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0742841397001059?via%3Dihub http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0742841397... http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/23273747.2016.1173766 http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/23273747.2016.11... Also, there may well be a valid debate about when or when not to use DDT, but the link you cite does not inspire confidence.

scardine 10y ago
I'm not saying DDT is harmless. But please, look at the baby from my country on the end of the article: I would ratter have a few hundred less raptors than a few thousand humans crippled for life or dead.
joecool1029 10y ago
http://junkscience.com/1999/07/100-things-you-should-know-about-ddt/ http://junkscience.com/1999/07/100-things-you-should-know-ab... Are these enough citations to bury yours with?

lkrubner 10y ago

Scardine, the book Silent Spring was published in 1962. That is 55 years ago. Since then there have been thousands of studies about the damage done by DDT. Start here: https://www.google.com/search?q=damage+by+ddt&oq=damage+by+ddt&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l2.2288j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8 https://www.google.com/search?q=damage+by+ddt&oq=damage+by+d... You can easily track down a few dozen studies that will inform you about the damage. There is a reason why nearly all the governments of the developed nations have moved to block or limit the use of DDT.

DrScump 10y ago
Well, sure, if your query is limited to bad effects of anything, you'll get disproportionately negative results. Try this, for that matter: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=climate+change+due+to+ddt https://duckduckgo.com/?q=climate+change+due+to+ddt or https://duckduckgo.com/?q=damage+to+bagels+due+to+ddt https://duckduckgo.com/?q=damage+to+bagels+due+to+ddt