5 ms·

CIA must have a bunch of embedded workers at Apple, Google, etc all adding subtle bugs that can later be used to hack the devices and services. I imagine other

CIA must have a bunch of embedded workers at Apple, Google, etc all adding subtle bugs that can later be used to hack the devices and services. I imagine other intelligence agencies must have them too. If they don't, then they're not doing their job.

JumpCrisscross 10y ago
> If they don't, then they're not doing their job The CIA, which has limited domestic authority, compromising American companies' products is not only not their job, but also illegal.
- wruza 10y ago
  If they have done everything legal, would wikileaks exist?
  - jamesmishra 10y ago
    Yes. An intelligence agency can operate lawfully (and with a higher ethical standard than any other intelligence agency), and still have enemies who intend to expose secrets.
  - jackvalentine 10y ago
    Yes, because people love readings about secret stuff regardless of legality.
  - JumpCrisscross 10y ago
    > If they have done everything legal [sic] I never said the CIA always conducts itself legally. My point was that "their job" is defined by the law. CIA agents infiltrating American manufacturers to break their products, even if intended for foreign customers, is illegal and thus not "their job". > would wikileaks exist If I understand correctly, you're saying Wikileaks' existence is proof of the CIA's impropriety? That assumes anything secret is illegal. Not true. Classified information is legal [1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classified_information_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classified_information_in_the_...
    - wruza 10y ago
      I was asking, not saying, sorry for anyone triggered.
- marcoperaza 10y ago
  How about every other intelligence agency in the world though? I'd be shocked if Chinese and Russian intelligence haven't infiltrated every major US tech company.
  - simonh 10y ago
    I'd be shocked if they'd all managed to embed agents in all of them. Intelligence agencies aren't all staffed only by super-competent elite agents as portrayed in films like the Bourne Identity. Having said that, we do know for a fact that some US companies and research establishments have actually been penetrated by Chinese agents because some of them have been caught. The problem with taking advantage of such agents though is that they not only have to get a job, they also have to get access to whatever the agency is targeting. In a company like Apple with extremely tight internal security that could be pretty challenging.
    - marcoperaza 10y ago
      During the Cold War, the KGB did much more seemingly far-fetched things to infiltrate the institutions of their adversaries. Infiltrating Western technology companies, who knowingly hire foreign nationals who are presumably loyal to their home nations, is easy pickings by comparison.
  - cookiecaper 10y ago
    Getting agents in the ranks to do some corporate espionage is one thing, and I'm sure that's happened as well; in fact, I'm sure that there are relatively small companies who regularly do this (probably by setting up a contracting relationship; it's possible some of the company's employees are unwittingly participating in such schemes). Getting listening devices installed/activated on every device is a whole 'nother ball park. To the extent that foreign intel services are doing this, my belief would be that it's only by infiltrating so deep that they learn the secrets of how to activate and utilize the monitoring agents installed for American intel services. That's not outside the realm of possibility, but I wouldn't call other nation-states incompetent for not yet having done so. There is also reverse-engineering, which seems like the more plausible scenario through which foreign intel services would gain access to embedded spy hardware. They just send a device back to their labs for serious reverse-engineering and learn the secrets from that.
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JumpCrisscross 10y ago

> If they don't, then they're not doing their job The CIA, which has limited domestic authority, compromising American companies' products is not only not their job, but also illegal.

wruza 10y ago
If they have done everything legal, would wikileaks exist?
- jamesmishra 10y ago
  Yes. An intelligence agency can operate lawfully (and with a higher ethical standard than any other intelligence agency), and still have enemies who intend to expose secrets.
- jackvalentine 10y ago
  Yes, because people love readings about secret stuff regardless of legality.
- JumpCrisscross 10y ago
  > If they have done everything legal [sic] I never said the CIA always conducts itself legally. My point was that "their job" is defined by the law. CIA agents infiltrating American manufacturers to break their products, even if intended for foreign customers, is illegal and thus not "their job". > would wikileaks exist If I understand correctly, you're saying Wikileaks' existence is proof of the CIA's impropriety? That assumes anything secret is illegal. Not true. Classified information is legal [1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classified_information_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classified_information_in_the_...
  - wruza 10y ago
    I was asking, not saying, sorry for anyone triggered.
marcoperaza 10y ago
How about every other intelligence agency in the world though? I'd be shocked if Chinese and Russian intelligence haven't infiltrated every major US tech company.
- simonh 10y ago
  I'd be shocked if they'd all managed to embed agents in all of them. Intelligence agencies aren't all staffed only by super-competent elite agents as portrayed in films like the Bourne Identity. Having said that, we do know for a fact that some US companies and research establishments have actually been penetrated by Chinese agents because some of them have been caught. The problem with taking advantage of such agents though is that they not only have to get a job, they also have to get access to whatever the agency is targeting. In a company like Apple with extremely tight internal security that could be pretty challenging.
  - marcoperaza 10y ago
    During the Cold War, the KGB did much more seemingly far-fetched things to infiltrate the institutions of their adversaries. Infiltrating Western technology companies, who knowingly hire foreign nationals who are presumably loyal to their home nations, is easy pickings by comparison.
- cookiecaper 10y ago
  Getting agents in the ranks to do some corporate espionage is one thing, and I'm sure that's happened as well; in fact, I'm sure that there are relatively small companies who regularly do this (probably by setting up a contracting relationship; it's possible some of the company's employees are unwittingly participating in such schemes). Getting listening devices installed/activated on every device is a whole 'nother ball park. To the extent that foreign intel services are doing this, my belief would be that it's only by infiltrating so deep that they learn the secrets of how to activate and utilize the monitoring agents installed for American intel services. That's not outside the realm of possibility, but I wouldn't call other nation-states incompetent for not yet having done so. There is also reverse-engineering, which seems like the more plausible scenario through which foreign intel services would gain access to embedded spy hardware. They just send a device back to their labs for serious reverse-engineering and learn the secrets from that.
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