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> Ugh. Drinking glasses are going to be filled regardless of how much rain we get. I live in the Bay Area and many restaurants here have notes on their menus e

> Ugh. Drinking glasses are going to be filled regardless of how much rain we get. I live in the Bay Area and many restaurants here have notes on their menus explaining that they only serve water on request due to drought. This is much different from a cavalier auto-fill that is customary in some places.

ars 10y ago
And this is why the whole country laughs at California's water problems. Printing the paper saying we won't fill glasses used 48 times[1] more water than the water in the glass! The amount of water used is so minuscule that you become a laughing stock just for suggesting it! And CA made it a law.... > "cavalier auto-fill" Please tell me that was your way of making fun of the law, and not that you actually support it. [1] https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2012/06/it-takes-more-than-3-gallons-of-water-to-make-a-single-sheet-of-paper/258838/ https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2012/06/it-ta...
- killin_dan 10y ago
  Something you might not know about California. (I lived there for a few years) They will support LITERALLY ANYTHING as long as a lawmaker tells them it's going to help them. They'll regulate ANYTHING for any reason. It's been that way since at least the 40s, probably before then too though.
  - Cd00d 10y ago
    Not sure I follow the criticism. California is a pro-regulation state, you posit, and I'll posit that Texas is an anti-regulation state. Yet, population adjusted, California ranks higher in economy by Gross State Product than Texas. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:GSP_per_capita_in_2015.png#/media/File:GSP_per_capita_in_2015.png https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:GSP_per_capita_in_20...
    - killin_dan 10y ago
      Amazing how I didn't make any economic claims whatsoever about either state. People like you ruin conversations about politics. I don't give half a shit how much money California pulls in, I'd never go back, I'll never hire a californian, so it has zero bearing to me. I'd thank you for the info, but you only posted to try and prove me wrong about something I didn't even say in the first place.
- 8_hours_ago 10y ago
  It's more about public outreach than saving a few cups of water. Reminding people that there is a drought every time they go out to eat is an effective way to get people to talk about water conservation, and perhaps even make some changes in their lifestyle to reduce water usage.
  - sowbug 10y ago
    As long as they understand that household water use in California is only about 15% of total usage. https://ca.water.usgs.gov/water_use/2010-california-water-use.html https://ca.water.usgs.gov/water_use/2010-california-water-us...
  - BurningFrog 10y ago
    The cynical view is that it's a way to make people believe they (and/or the authorities) are doing something about the water crisis.
- mquander 10y ago
  This is not a reasonable commentary on the law. The obvious rejoinder to your point is that the paper is printed once, and the glasses are filled many times a day. Another plausible rationale is that by creating a rule that applies to people's everyday lives in a visible way, the public becomes more aware of water savings in every context. Another plausible rationale is that politicians want to signal concern over water shortages to their concerned constituents, but for a variety of (probably well-intentioned) reasons don't want to change actually impactful regulations about water distribution, so they make a symbolic one. Like you, I assume that these are stupid reasons which don't warrant making the law. But pretending that they don't exist is not a good way to think. Argue against something real.
- azakai 10y ago
  But you print out the paper just once and save many glasses thanks to that. Your data suggests it breaks even at 48, which indicates this makes sense.
  - ars 10y ago
    My data does not suggest that, since that's for a thin sheet of paper, not card stock. And it does not include the ink or the plastic lamination. I was using paper as an example of just how little water this law is saving, but people are using that example literally.
- raamdev 10y ago
  > Printing the paper saying we won't fill glasses used 48 times[1] more water than the water in the glass! If that's the case, then wouldn't it just take 48 customers to a given table (who don't request water) to start saving water?
  - ars 10y ago
    That's for a flimsy sheet of paper (i.e. disposable). Card stock for a menu uses much more water, as does the ink. But you missed my point: The amount of water saved is so small as to be a joke. I was using paper printing to show just how little water it is.
- gyrgtyn 10y ago
  Signs like that usually say "it takes EIGHT cups of water to wash this cup that you probably didn't even want"
- eridius 10y ago
  Besides the fact that it also saves on all the water used to clean the glasses, both the paper and ink used to print the signs were probably created somewhere other than California, meaning the printing of that piece of paper does not negatively impact the drought situation in CA in the slightest. Your comment is ignoring this and treating the usage of water anywhere in the world as if it's relevant to CA's drought situation.
- danjoc 10y ago
  This is a silly rebuttal. At a restaurant, I assume they fill quite a few more than 48 glasses of water a day. They only have to print the piece of paper once. Most of your pulp wood comes from the south east. https://srs.fs.usda.gov/pubs/rb/rb_srs171.pdf https://srs.fs.usda.gov/pubs/rb/rb_srs171.pdf Georgia and Alabama are #1 and 2 respectively. https://www.srs.fs.fed.us/pubs/rb/rb_srs194.pdf https://www.srs.fs.fed.us/pubs/rb/rb_srs194.pdf California most likely imported that paper, so no loss. In fact, worrying about water used in paper production is itself entirely ridiculous. Paper production is better known for it's bad smell and release of toxins to the air and water. You must never have experienced the eye watering stench of a paper mill. http://www.greenpressinitiative.org/documents/StateOfPaperInd.pdf http://www.greenpressinitiative.org/documents/StateOfPaperIn... California has water problems, but that's not attributable to their signage.
  - jjeaff 10y ago
    The point isn't that the paper costs more water to print. The point is that drinking water is such a tiny miniscule part of water usage that it is ridiculous to waste time on it. It's all just for show so politicians can pretend they are doing something when they really should be regulating agricultural usage. The water used to water lawns, fill bathtubs, flush toilets, and shower with is less than 10% of water usage. So the drinking water you didn't drink from your glass is a fraction of a percent of that 10%. You would probably serve the public good more by encouraging them to drink water by putting it out by default. Thus increasing water intake and decreasing sugary drink consumption.
    - Ductapemaster 10y ago
      While what you say is factually true, I think the thing you are missing is the psychological effect of putting up such signs and having these policies. It gets people in the mindset that this is serious and we can't ignore it. It's very easy to get caught up in the mob mentality when it comes to personal water usage which leads to, I think, feelings of helplessness and an ignorance when it comes to the larger problems like agricultural water usage. If you aren't encountering these sorts of things on a daily basis, you lose sight of the greater issues. However when the entire community is affected, it changes how people act and feel. People are much more likely to stand up and say something when they are personally affected (either by choice or by situation). Even if only a small percentage of people started caring more about conserving water because of these laws, I think it's a good thing.
- Steko 10y ago
  > Printing the paper saying we won't fill glasses used 48 times[1] more water than the water in the glass! One sheet of paper can be cut up and used for over a dozen small notes so maybe it cost them 4 glasses of water per table which they may save every week easily. And while the paper could have come from California, it's much more likely to have been made elsewhere in a non-drought area.
- city41 10y ago
  I always assumed the real point of restaurants doing that was to help spread awareness on the drought.
njohnson41 10y ago
Or maybe it's just a good excuse to carry fewer cups and pitchers around?
exabrial 10y ago
This is an unfortunate marketing ruse... Residential water usage accounts for a few percentage point of water use :/

ars 10y ago

And this is why the whole country laughs at California's water problems. Printing the paper saying we won't fill glasses used 48 times[1] more water than the water in the glass! The amount of water used is so minuscule that you become a laughing stock just for suggesting it! And CA made it a law.... > "cavalier auto-fill" Please tell me that was your way of making fun of the law, and not that you actually support it. [1] https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2012/06/it-takes-more-than-3-gallons-of-water-to-make-a-single-sheet-of-paper/258838/ https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2012/06/it-ta...

killin_dan 10y ago
Something you might not know about California. (I lived there for a few years) They will support LITERALLY ANYTHING as long as a lawmaker tells them it's going to help them. They'll regulate ANYTHING for any reason. It's been that way since at least the 40s, probably before then too though.
- Cd00d 10y ago
  Not sure I follow the criticism. California is a pro-regulation state, you posit, and I'll posit that Texas is an anti-regulation state. Yet, population adjusted, California ranks higher in economy by Gross State Product than Texas. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:GSP_per_capita_in_2015.png#/media/File:GSP_per_capita_in_2015.png https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:GSP_per_capita_in_20...
  - killin_dan 10y ago
    Amazing how I didn't make any economic claims whatsoever about either state. People like you ruin conversations about politics. I don't give half a shit how much money California pulls in, I'd never go back, I'll never hire a californian, so it has zero bearing to me. I'd thank you for the info, but you only posted to try and prove me wrong about something I didn't even say in the first place.
8_hours_ago 10y ago
It's more about public outreach than saving a few cups of water. Reminding people that there is a drought every time they go out to eat is an effective way to get people to talk about water conservation, and perhaps even make some changes in their lifestyle to reduce water usage.
- sowbug 10y ago
  As long as they understand that household water use in California is only about 15% of total usage. https://ca.water.usgs.gov/water_use/2010-california-water-use.html https://ca.water.usgs.gov/water_use/2010-california-water-us...
- BurningFrog 10y ago
  The cynical view is that it's a way to make people believe they (and/or the authorities) are doing something about the water crisis.
mquander 10y ago
This is not a reasonable commentary on the law. The obvious rejoinder to your point is that the paper is printed once, and the glasses are filled many times a day. Another plausible rationale is that by creating a rule that applies to people's everyday lives in a visible way, the public becomes more aware of water savings in every context. Another plausible rationale is that politicians want to signal concern over water shortages to their concerned constituents, but for a variety of (probably well-intentioned) reasons don't want to change actually impactful regulations about water distribution, so they make a symbolic one. Like you, I assume that these are stupid reasons which don't warrant making the law. But pretending that they don't exist is not a good way to think. Argue against something real.
azakai 10y ago
But you print out the paper just once and save many glasses thanks to that. Your data suggests it breaks even at 48, which indicates this makes sense.
- ars 10y ago
  My data does not suggest that, since that's for a thin sheet of paper, not card stock. And it does not include the ink or the plastic lamination. I was using paper as an example of just how little water this law is saving, but people are using that example literally.
raamdev 10y ago
> Printing the paper saying we won't fill glasses used 48 times[1] more water than the water in the glass! If that's the case, then wouldn't it just take 48 customers to a given table (who don't request water) to start saving water?
- ars 10y ago
  That's for a flimsy sheet of paper (i.e. disposable). Card stock for a menu uses much more water, as does the ink. But you missed my point: The amount of water saved is so small as to be a joke. I was using paper printing to show just how little water it is.
gyrgtyn 10y ago
Signs like that usually say "it takes EIGHT cups of water to wash this cup that you probably didn't even want"
eridius 10y ago
Besides the fact that it also saves on all the water used to clean the glasses, both the paper and ink used to print the signs were probably created somewhere other than California, meaning the printing of that piece of paper does not negatively impact the drought situation in CA in the slightest. Your comment is ignoring this and treating the usage of water anywhere in the world as if it's relevant to CA's drought situation.
danjoc 10y ago
This is a silly rebuttal. At a restaurant, I assume they fill quite a few more than 48 glasses of water a day. They only have to print the piece of paper once. Most of your pulp wood comes from the south east. https://srs.fs.usda.gov/pubs/rb/rb_srs171.pdf https://srs.fs.usda.gov/pubs/rb/rb_srs171.pdf Georgia and Alabama are #1 and 2 respectively. https://www.srs.fs.fed.us/pubs/rb/rb_srs194.pdf https://www.srs.fs.fed.us/pubs/rb/rb_srs194.pdf California most likely imported that paper, so no loss. In fact, worrying about water used in paper production is itself entirely ridiculous. Paper production is better known for it's bad smell and release of toxins to the air and water. You must never have experienced the eye watering stench of a paper mill. http://www.greenpressinitiative.org/documents/StateOfPaperInd.pdf http://www.greenpressinitiative.org/documents/StateOfPaperIn... California has water problems, but that's not attributable to their signage.
- jjeaff 10y ago
  The point isn't that the paper costs more water to print. The point is that drinking water is such a tiny miniscule part of water usage that it is ridiculous to waste time on it. It's all just for show so politicians can pretend they are doing something when they really should be regulating agricultural usage. The water used to water lawns, fill bathtubs, flush toilets, and shower with is less than 10% of water usage. So the drinking water you didn't drink from your glass is a fraction of a percent of that 10%. You would probably serve the public good more by encouraging them to drink water by putting it out by default. Thus increasing water intake and decreasing sugary drink consumption.
  - Ductapemaster 10y ago
    While what you say is factually true, I think the thing you are missing is the psychological effect of putting up such signs and having these policies. It gets people in the mindset that this is serious and we can't ignore it. It's very easy to get caught up in the mob mentality when it comes to personal water usage which leads to, I think, feelings of helplessness and an ignorance when it comes to the larger problems like agricultural water usage. If you aren't encountering these sorts of things on a daily basis, you lose sight of the greater issues. However when the entire community is affected, it changes how people act and feel. People are much more likely to stand up and say something when they are personally affected (either by choice or by situation). Even if only a small percentage of people started caring more about conserving water because of these laws, I think it's a good thing.
Steko 10y ago
> Printing the paper saying we won't fill glasses used 48 times[1] more water than the water in the glass! One sheet of paper can be cut up and used for over a dozen small notes so maybe it cost them 4 glasses of water per table which they may save every week easily. And while the paper could have come from California, it's much more likely to have been made elsewhere in a non-drought area.
city41 10y ago
I always assumed the real point of restaurants doing that was to help spread awareness on the drought.

njohnson41 10y ago

Or maybe it's just a good excuse to carry fewer cups and pitchers around?

exabrial 10y ago

This is an unfortunate marketing ruse... Residential water usage accounts for a few percentage point of water use :/