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> Not to mention network transparency when I need it You realize that no X client draws like this nor has for 20 years right? They all use xshm to upload pixel

> Not to mention network transparency when I need it You realize that no X client draws like this nor has for 20 years right? They all use xshm to upload pixels so this "network transparency" is just buffer copying over the network. Not entirely different from a texture upload to a GPU. > So it's a good job we're about to throw it all out and start again, eh folks? Yes, by those of us who have been working on the same platform you claim to love, for the better part of a couple decades.

zbuf 10y ago
> You realize that no X client draws like this nor has for 20 years right? They all use xshm to upload pixels [...] You seem to be misinformed. Of the applications I mentioned, the main ones (gitk, xterm, emacs, xosview) are not doing that; seen clearly by analysing the X traffic. Of course, some of these could be built with an optional Qt front-end, in which case I would not be surprised. So you stated clearly "all" applications (for "20 years") which is provably incorrect; and I home in on this because it's a recurrence of another 'well, you never had it before' argument (that really might be better directed at the decaying state of X11 client toolkits) X11 isn't perfect, I have no doubt something better can be engineered (especially if it involves those who worked on X11). But people are missing the point that to replace X11 is a different matter from designing a better one. It involves acknowledging those who are quietly and successfully using X11 on a daily basis for the majority of their work and existing applications -- not telling us how wrong we are.
- audidude 10y ago
  That's precisely why I stated 20 years. Those programs were written before that and largely haven't changed since. If you wan't anti-aliasing in any of those above (gitk/emacs come to mind) you'll be doing client side rendering of fonts and copying pixels.
  - monochromatic 10y ago
    > no X client draws like this nor has for 20 years If something was written a long time ago and hasn't changed in this respect, BUT is still widely used... you can't say that "no X client draws like this nor has for 20 years."
  - fulafel 10y ago
    "Copying pixels" is the dominant mode of operation in other remote GUI protocols like RDP, so it's not the end of the world.
    - audidude 10y ago
      Indeed. Especially since TCP-based X would require that you stall operations if you drop a packet so that draw-ordering is preserved.
      - fulafel 10y ago
        If you want to optimize for choppy networks that have too much packet loss for interactive TCP applications , then the current X11 is not a good fit. But that would be a whole different niche.
      - digi_owl 10y ago
        Could have sworn that there exist multiple takes on extensions for that, but none that has been rolled into Xorg proper. This either because lisencing, or because the current devs have GPU stars in their eyes. BTW, it is downright funny how just about every Gnome guy i have encountered online seems to come across a pedantic grump. that would not know a joke if it fell on his head...
        audidude 10y ago
        Interesting how one person is a common denominator in all those interactions ;)
        digi_owl 10y ago
        And most of the comment gets ignored for a cheap retort, as expected.
        audidude 10y ago
        you've mentioned something i've not heard about without linking to it or providing a name to help me find it myself. so i'm not sure what you'd like from me.
- firman 10y ago
  It is reminding me that webkit is grand child of QT. QT > KDE > khtml > webkit
theoh 10y ago
In 2000, I don't think many open source X clients (typically Linux stuff) used xshm. Not using X any more, I can't really comment on the current scene. But apart from things like MAME and vlc, what app needs it? And web browsers, of course. (Accelerating OpenGL in hardware but displaying in an X11 window is a different question.)

zbuf 10y ago

> You realize that no X client draws like this nor has for 20 years right? They all use xshm to upload pixels [...] You seem to be misinformed. Of the applications I mentioned, the main ones (gitk, xterm, emacs, xosview) are not doing that; seen clearly by analysing the X traffic. Of course, some of these could be built with an optional Qt front-end, in which case I would not be surprised. So you stated clearly "all" applications (for "20 years") which is provably incorrect; and I home in on this because it's a recurrence of another 'well, you never had it before' argument (that really might be better directed at the decaying state of X11 client toolkits) X11 isn't perfect, I have no doubt something better can be engineered (especially if it involves those who worked on X11). But people are missing the point that to replace X11 is a different matter from designing a better one. It involves acknowledging those who are quietly and successfully using X11 on a daily basis for the majority of their work and existing applications -- not telling us how wrong we are.

audidude 10y ago
That's precisely why I stated 20 years. Those programs were written before that and largely haven't changed since. If you wan't anti-aliasing in any of those above (gitk/emacs come to mind) you'll be doing client side rendering of fonts and copying pixels.
- monochromatic 10y ago
  > no X client draws like this nor has for 20 years If something was written a long time ago and hasn't changed in this respect, BUT is still widely used... you can't say that "no X client draws like this nor has for 20 years."
- fulafel 10y ago
  "Copying pixels" is the dominant mode of operation in other remote GUI protocols like RDP, so it's not the end of the world.
  - audidude 10y ago
    Indeed. Especially since TCP-based X would require that you stall operations if you drop a packet so that draw-ordering is preserved.
    - fulafel 10y ago
      If you want to optimize for choppy networks that have too much packet loss for interactive TCP applications , then the current X11 is not a good fit. But that would be a whole different niche.
    - digi_owl 10y ago
      Could have sworn that there exist multiple takes on extensions for that, but none that has been rolled into Xorg proper. This either because lisencing, or because the current devs have GPU stars in their eyes. BTW, it is downright funny how just about every Gnome guy i have encountered online seems to come across a pedantic grump. that would not know a joke if it fell on his head...
      - audidude 10y ago
        Interesting how one person is a common denominator in all those interactions ;)
        digi_owl 10y ago
        And most of the comment gets ignored for a cheap retort, as expected.
        audidude 10y ago
        you've mentioned something i've not heard about without linking to it or providing a name to help me find it myself. so i'm not sure what you'd like from me.
firman 10y ago
It is reminding me that webkit is grand child of QT. QT > KDE > khtml > webkit

theoh 10y ago

In 2000, I don't think many open source X clients (typically Linux stuff) used xshm. Not using X any more, I can't really comment on the current scene. But apart from things like MAME and vlc, what app needs it? And web browsers, of course. (Accelerating OpenGL in hardware but displaying in an X11 window is a different question.)