4 ms·

The US consumer doesn't give a shit about worker's safety, even if those workers are American. The only people fighting for workers' safety are unions and no on

The US consumer doesn't give a shit about worker's safety, even if those workers are American. The only people fighting for workers' safety are unions and no one likes unions.

macawfish 10y ago
Yes... I agree on some level. But I don't think that's entirely fair. The marketing industry has done a very good job of seducing people into willful ignorance. Recently my mother went to a protest against potential copper mining in the boundary waters. She was giddy to inform me that she was riding up in with her friend in his brand new shiny name brand car. I felt a kind of irony there in that. The amount of environmental and human sacrifice that goes into people buying brand new cars every 3-4 years is enormous. Its very similar to my own hypocrisy around computers and cell phones. I know full well that this thing I'm holding in my hand was born out of human blood. It's deeply embarrassingly and I struggle to face it. People complain that stuff is expensive. We worship it. We demand it. But there are reasons why some things are expensive. It's because they take time and effort. If we live in a world where we aren't able to extend the patience these things require, why should we depend on them, much less go demanding them as basic rights?
allengeorge 10y ago
This, I think, is the core issue. While unions have their faults, they have also fought for workers' rights and for reasonable conditions, promotions, etc. In our drive to demonize unions and fetishize business we've forgotten that there is a powerful "drive to the bottom", and it doesn't care about who (or how many) people are in its path.
- jacquesm 10y ago
  The problem with unions is that over time they devolve into yet-another-powerstructure whose main goal seems to be self preservation rather than to protect those workers rights leading to all kinds of abuses and nonsense regulations that in fact harm those workers.
  - prawn 10y ago
    You can say this about many/most human-led organisations, right? I've wondered when we might see someone pitch to YC a technical solution to what unions do, without the cruft that can come from human influence (losing sight of purpose, developing corruption, etc). Is there even a way to do it?
    - jacquesm 10y ago
      > You can say this about many/most human-led organisations, right? Yes, that's true. > I've wondered when we might see someone pitch to YC a technical solution to what unions do, without the cruft that can come from human influence (losing sight of purpose, developing corruption, etc). Is there even a way to do it? These are social problems, not technical problems. Solving social problems requires the cooperation of all the parties involved. Democracy is one nice example of a technical solution to a social problem, money another. Both rely heavily on everybody playing by the rules.
  - vacri 10y ago
    I have no great love for unions, but they're a necessary evil. "Harm those workers" as in "sell them out" is a better place to be than "harm those workers" as in "they lose limbs or worse". Unions create fat cats at the top, but it's still better overall for the rank and file to have them than not have them.
ryandvm 10y ago
US manufacturing workers overwhelmingly supported Trump who has made no bones about his intention to deregulate and de-unionize everything he can. I'd say even US workers don't give a shit about US workers' safety.
- arcseco 10y ago
  This is the result of globalism and a liberalization of nation state markets to trade freely without fear of tariff penalties. It's not hard to see why blue collar workers would rather work in 'poorer' conditions rather than sit idle and lose hope in their futures. If the west has to compete with manufacturing from abroad, that will mean a lowering of work place safety and environmental standards until domestic manufacturing is cost competitive. The end result will be an equalization of living standards between free trading nations, the west will have to capitulate to the lowering of living standards at some point if it hasn't already.
  - krapp 10y ago
    >It's not hard to see why blue collar workers would rather work in 'poorer' conditions rather than sit idle and lose hope in their futures. Trump's promises have never included the caveat of poorer conditions or lower wages, as far as I'm aware, and I see little evidence of blue collar workers intending to make any sort of tradeoffs in that regard. What he has promised, however, are "more jobs and better wages."
    - alphabettsy 10y ago
      To be fair, Trump didn't offer much in the way of actual policy with stated goals. The 'How' of his plans were seemingly filled in by both imagination and the media. Saying one is going to put a stop to job killing regulations is deliberately non-specific and some who support him believe he will make things better without acknowledging potentially negative consequences. There are many who supported Clinton or Obama with the same magical thinking, real life is messy and anyone promising simple or easy solutions is a fool or thinks you might be.
brudgers 10y ago
That might be a consequence of people in the US being encouraged to identify as consumers rather than citizens over the last twenty+ years. Identifying as taxpayers rather than citizens laid the groundwork for it a generation earlier.

The US consumer doesn't give a shit about worker's safety, even if those workers are American. The only people fighting for workers' safety are unions and no one likes unions.

macawfish 10y ago

Yes... I agree on some level. But I don't think that's entirely fair. The marketing industry has done a very good job of seducing people into willful ignorance. Recently my mother went to a protest against potential copper mining in the boundary waters. She was giddy to inform me that she was riding up in with her friend in his brand new shiny name brand car. I felt a kind of irony there in that. The amount of environmental and human sacrifice that goes into people buying brand new cars every 3-4 years is enormous. Its very similar to my own hypocrisy around computers and cell phones. I know full well that this thing I'm holding in my hand was born out of human blood. It's deeply embarrassingly and I struggle to face it. People complain that stuff is expensive. We worship it. We demand it. But there are reasons why some things are expensive. It's because they take time and effort. If we live in a world where we aren't able to extend the patience these things require, why should we depend on them, much less go demanding them as basic rights?

allengeorge 10y ago

This, I think, is the core issue. While unions have their faults, they have also fought for workers' rights and for reasonable conditions, promotions, etc. In our drive to demonize unions and fetishize business we've forgotten that there is a powerful "drive to the bottom", and it doesn't care about who (or how many) people are in its path.

jacquesm 10y ago
The problem with unions is that over time they devolve into yet-another-powerstructure whose main goal seems to be self preservation rather than to protect those workers rights leading to all kinds of abuses and nonsense regulations that in fact harm those workers.
- prawn 10y ago
  You can say this about many/most human-led organisations, right? I've wondered when we might see someone pitch to YC a technical solution to what unions do, without the cruft that can come from human influence (losing sight of purpose, developing corruption, etc). Is there even a way to do it?
  - jacquesm 10y ago
    > You can say this about many/most human-led organisations, right? Yes, that's true. > I've wondered when we might see someone pitch to YC a technical solution to what unions do, without the cruft that can come from human influence (losing sight of purpose, developing corruption, etc). Is there even a way to do it? These are social problems, not technical problems. Solving social problems requires the cooperation of all the parties involved. Democracy is one nice example of a technical solution to a social problem, money another. Both rely heavily on everybody playing by the rules.
- vacri 10y ago
  I have no great love for unions, but they're a necessary evil. "Harm those workers" as in "sell them out" is a better place to be than "harm those workers" as in "they lose limbs or worse". Unions create fat cats at the top, but it's still better overall for the rank and file to have them than not have them.

ryandvm 10y ago

US manufacturing workers overwhelmingly supported Trump who has made no bones about his intention to deregulate and de-unionize everything he can. I'd say even US workers don't give a shit about US workers' safety.

arcseco 10y ago
This is the result of globalism and a liberalization of nation state markets to trade freely without fear of tariff penalties. It's not hard to see why blue collar workers would rather work in 'poorer' conditions rather than sit idle and lose hope in their futures. If the west has to compete with manufacturing from abroad, that will mean a lowering of work place safety and environmental standards until domestic manufacturing is cost competitive. The end result will be an equalization of living standards between free trading nations, the west will have to capitulate to the lowering of living standards at some point if it hasn't already.
- krapp 10y ago
  >It's not hard to see why blue collar workers would rather work in 'poorer' conditions rather than sit idle and lose hope in their futures. Trump's promises have never included the caveat of poorer conditions or lower wages, as far as I'm aware, and I see little evidence of blue collar workers intending to make any sort of tradeoffs in that regard. What he has promised, however, are "more jobs and better wages."
  - alphabettsy 10y ago
    To be fair, Trump didn't offer much in the way of actual policy with stated goals. The 'How' of his plans were seemingly filled in by both imagination and the media. Saying one is going to put a stop to job killing regulations is deliberately non-specific and some who support him believe he will make things better without acknowledging potentially negative consequences. There are many who supported Clinton or Obama with the same magical thinking, real life is messy and anyone promising simple or easy solutions is a fool or thinks you might be.

brudgers 10y ago

That might be a consequence of people in the US being encouraged to identify as consumers rather than citizens over the last twenty+ years. Identifying as taxpayers rather than citizens laid the groundwork for it a generation earlier.