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I used to work for Landstar[0], which operates in a very similar way to Uber, but in the trucking industry. The company has been around for almost 30 years and

I used to work for Landstar[0], which operates in a very similar way to Uber, but in the trucking industry. The company has been around for almost 30 years and the drivers are considered Owner-Operators[1] (i.e. contractors). I was under the impression that an Uber driver could choose not to take any given fare(just like our truckers could). There seems to be some irrationality when it comes to Uber among my fellow engineers, and I can't figure out why. [To be clear: I've never used Uber nor would I generally consider it over my local 'trolley' in the ~35K population town in which I live.] [0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landstar_System https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landstar_System [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Owner-operator https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Owner-operator

zht 10y ago
if the Landstar drivers refuse too many fares are they banned forever from the system?
- narrowrail 10y ago
  Not officially, but I'm sure it was happening. Each individual Landstar broker operates independently as well, so if a given driver is constantly saying no, I am certain the broker would stop calling that driver (or at least put them further down the list). It was obviously a more 'manual' and distributed process, that started in the 70's with companies like Dial-a-Truck: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dial-a-truck https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dial-a-truck These systems morphed into what is called a 'load board,' and Landstar operated what was more of a network of independent trucking brokers with their own shared/ private load board.
frgtpsswrdlame 10y ago
Imo the contractor designation should be limited to people who have pricing power for their work. Uber drivers have none.
- gshulegaard 10y ago
  Technically, having the option to decline fares is a form of pricing power.
- narrowrail 10y ago
  I think that's a somewhat fair comment, and a t0pic worthy of discussion. According to wikipedia[0], In economics and particularly in industrial organization, market power is the ability of a firm to profitably raise the market price of a good or service over marginal cost. In perfectly competitive markets, market participants have no market power. I'm pretty sure I don't have the exact facts on what Uber's operating agreement with drivers is, but I always thought a given driver could choose to only drive during surge pricing, no? We always tried to manage our drivers for an elastic supply of capacity (much like an ad exchange). Otherwise, we'd be overwhelmed like the under-covered transport problem in Austin during SXSW (I believe a result of the lack of Uber availability). Uber's radio adverts explicitly state that it's "drive when you want for extra money," and if that is not what they actually offer then Lyft has a huge opportunity to acquire/retain more/better drivers and maintain a rapid ability to scale for capacity. I am of the belief that Uber presents a unique opportunity to rethink the whole structure of unions in the US (I don't actually care if Canada bans Uber altogether, for example, I am more interested in the concepts themselves), and maybe a total rethink about how to organize labor. I would have interest in building a commercial platform to help labor organize and coordinate themselves better (that they own) in the modern world. I think it would look like a gated digital community with microblogging, discussion, and voting functions. [0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market_power https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market_power
  - frgtpsswrdlame 10y ago
    The important part is this: market power is the ability of a firm to profitably raise the market price of a good or service over marginal cost The driver does not raise the price, Uber does. Uber has the market power here. >I'm pretty sure I don't have the exact facts on what Uber's operating agreement with drivers is, but I always thought a given driver could choose to only drive during surge pricing, no? Perhaps, I should have been more direct. A contractor should be able to set and negotiate rates. If they can't do that I think they're an employee. For example, if I need to hire a general contractor for a construction job I can shop around, compare rates, pick the best one AND haggle with them if need be. If I need to hire an Uber, I have no "haggle-power" OR ability to shop around because Uber sets the rate. None of the contractors are competing against each other because Uber controls the marketplace and this is where I think the contractor designation breaks down. If you tightly control the market, the people in it are employees, if the market is more free, the people in it are probably contractors. >I am of the belief that Uber presents a unique opportunity to rethink the whole structure of unions in the US, and maybe a total rethink about how to organize labor. I would have interest in building a commercial platform to help labor organize and coordinate themselves better (that they own) in the modern world. I think it would look like a gated digital community with microblogging, discussion, and voting functions. This sounds interesting but personally I'm of the mind that poor labor organization is a political problem. How would your app help workers beyond just a place to communicate?
ubernostrum 10y ago
In the US, at least, the employee/contractor difference is based on a number of factors, but one important factor is the level of control over the person doing the work. If you're setting their working hours, or deciding which jobs they'll take or how they'll do them, or setting their wage/pricing for them, etc., those are things which point toward the "they are an employee" side of the spectrum.
- lazyasciiart 10y ago
  But it isn't that straightforward, because your can have a 10x ninja developer who works whenever they want and picks their own projects, but is still an employee.
  - tholmes 10y ago
    That's not a problem. The point in the tax code is to prevent offloading the tax liability by classifying people who are rightfully employees as contractors instead. I'm reasonably certain the tax code has no regulation that says you must be classed a contractor if you meet certain criteria.

zht 10y ago

if the Landstar drivers refuse too many fares are they banned forever from the system?

narrowrail 10y ago
Not officially, but I'm sure it was happening. Each individual Landstar broker operates independently as well, so if a given driver is constantly saying no, I am certain the broker would stop calling that driver (or at least put them further down the list). It was obviously a more 'manual' and distributed process, that started in the 70's with companies like Dial-a-Truck: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dial-a-truck https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dial-a-truck These systems morphed into what is called a 'load board,' and Landstar operated what was more of a network of independent trucking brokers with their own shared/ private load board.

frgtpsswrdlame 10y ago

Imo the contractor designation should be limited to people who have pricing power for their work. Uber drivers have none.

gshulegaard 10y ago
Technically, having the option to decline fares is a form of pricing power.
narrowrail 10y ago
I think that's a somewhat fair comment, and a t0pic worthy of discussion. According to wikipedia[0], In economics and particularly in industrial organization, market power is the ability of a firm to profitably raise the market price of a good or service over marginal cost. In perfectly competitive markets, market participants have no market power. I'm pretty sure I don't have the exact facts on what Uber's operating agreement with drivers is, but I always thought a given driver could choose to only drive during surge pricing, no? We always tried to manage our drivers for an elastic supply of capacity (much like an ad exchange). Otherwise, we'd be overwhelmed like the under-covered transport problem in Austin during SXSW (I believe a result of the lack of Uber availability). Uber's radio adverts explicitly state that it's "drive when you want for extra money," and if that is not what they actually offer then Lyft has a huge opportunity to acquire/retain more/better drivers and maintain a rapid ability to scale for capacity. I am of the belief that Uber presents a unique opportunity to rethink the whole structure of unions in the US (I don't actually care if Canada bans Uber altogether, for example, I am more interested in the concepts themselves), and maybe a total rethink about how to organize labor. I would have interest in building a commercial platform to help labor organize and coordinate themselves better (that they own) in the modern world. I think it would look like a gated digital community with microblogging, discussion, and voting functions. [0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market_power https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market_power
- frgtpsswrdlame 10y ago
  The important part is this: market power is the ability of a firm to profitably raise the market price of a good or service over marginal cost The driver does not raise the price, Uber does. Uber has the market power here. >I'm pretty sure I don't have the exact facts on what Uber's operating agreement with drivers is, but I always thought a given driver could choose to only drive during surge pricing, no? Perhaps, I should have been more direct. A contractor should be able to set and negotiate rates. If they can't do that I think they're an employee. For example, if I need to hire a general contractor for a construction job I can shop around, compare rates, pick the best one AND haggle with them if need be. If I need to hire an Uber, I have no "haggle-power" OR ability to shop around because Uber sets the rate. None of the contractors are competing against each other because Uber controls the marketplace and this is where I think the contractor designation breaks down. If you tightly control the market, the people in it are employees, if the market is more free, the people in it are probably contractors. >I am of the belief that Uber presents a unique opportunity to rethink the whole structure of unions in the US, and maybe a total rethink about how to organize labor. I would have interest in building a commercial platform to help labor organize and coordinate themselves better (that they own) in the modern world. I think it would look like a gated digital community with microblogging, discussion, and voting functions. This sounds interesting but personally I'm of the mind that poor labor organization is a political problem. How would your app help workers beyond just a place to communicate?

ubernostrum 10y ago

In the US, at least, the employee/contractor difference is based on a number of factors, but one important factor is the level of control over the person doing the work. If you're setting their working hours, or deciding which jobs they'll take or how they'll do them, or setting their wage/pricing for them, etc., those are things which point toward the "they are an employee" side of the spectrum.

lazyasciiart 10y ago
But it isn't that straightforward, because your can have a 10x ninja developer who works whenever they want and picks their own projects, but is still an employee.
- tholmes 10y ago
  That's not a problem. The point in the tax code is to prevent offloading the tax liability by classifying people who are rightfully employees as contractors instead. I'm reasonably certain the tax code has no regulation that says you must be classed a contractor if you meet certain criteria.