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As a "ancient web developer": i will come back once you JS folks have agreed on a tool set and actually use it for more than 6 months.
by sparkling 10y ago
As a "ancient web developer": i will come back once you JS folks have agreed on a tool set and actually use it for more than 6 months.
- CharlesW 10y ago> i will come back once you JS folks have agreed on a tool set and actually use it for more than 6 months. It works as a joke too, but the vast majority of JS developers aren't using tools younger than 6 months old. Even current hotness Vue.js was originally released in 2015, and Webpack was initially released in 2012.
- chrshawkes 10y agoWhat about Webpack 2 or Vue.JS 2 with it's breaking changes?
- CharlesW 10y agoI'll share my personal experience, which is that the move to Vue.js 2 was fairly straightforward. The project's handy "migration helper" helped a lot. Still, it's not something I jumped on immediately. I haven't upgraded my projects to Webpack 2 yet. I'm interested but not compelled to, and I'll do it when it makes sense for me. Does that make JavaScript a bad ecosystem? I have a hard time thinking of thoughtful major releases as a bad thing.
- pdelgallego 10y agoA major release with significant breaking changes is very damaging (Angular 2, Python 3, ...)
- CharlesW 10y agoThe move to Vue.js was straightforward (and I'm not a great software engineer), but I understand that YMMV.
- pdelgallego 10y agoA major release with significant breaking changes is very damaging (Angular 2, Python 3, ...)
- chaostheory 10y agoimo Migrating to either one wasn't as hard as Rails 2 -> 3. You'd have a better point if you mentioned migration from Angular 1 -> 2.
- mattmanser 10y agoYou seem to have forgotten the latest hotness yarn, which is indeed less than 6 months old.
- CharlesW 10y agoMy point wasn't that there aren't interesting tools younger than 6 months, just that nothing compels JS devs to use them or even pay attention to them until they're as established (in age, use, GitHub stars, whatever) as is comfortable for them.
- mattmanser 10y agoAll the instructions for everyone now uses yarn though, so you are affected, just like everyone was affected with the bower switch, gulp switch, etc. The churn in tooling is unavoidable even if you use slightly less fashionable frameworks.
- lumpypua 10y agoThe trouble is that yarn is legitimately better than npm. My life is better as a developer because of yarn. I'm not claiming that all those transitions were for the best, far from it, but the real question for any language community to answer is: "how much churn is acceptable in the pursuit of better?" JS is an ongoing cultural experiment in seeing what happens when you turn that dial to 11.
- mattmanser 10y agoThat's irrelevant in many ways. non-javascript languages deal with this by improving the existing tools. And realistically speaking, yarn is not a discernable improvement over npm. The cultural experiment has a huge cost to programmers and it's been an utter disaster. Even PHP has leapfrogged javascript.
- dntrkv 10y agoYou don't have to use Yarn. And if you do want to, it's a simple drop in replacement that requires almost zero configuration. Yarn will save you 10x the time you spend configuring it from using it just once. But go ahead, keep using NPM, new stuff is scary.
- flukus 10y agoI was doing vue.js 10 years ago with knockout, it's the perfect example of unnecessary churn the parent was referring too.
- CharlesW 10y agoIf Knockout has been around for over a decade (v3.4.2 was released a couple weeks ago), isn't it also the perfect examples that churn isn't a given just because JavaScript?
- flukus 10y agoThe churn comes from the community, not from any particular library. Only having experience with knockout but not react or angular for instance will halve your job opportunities for instance.
- brlewis 10y agoHow ancient a web developer are you? When I started doing web work in 1994 people couldn't agree on C vs Perl. When C fell into disuse it was Perl vs PHP vs Python vs Ruby. Unless you liked ASP/VBScript or just wanted to use Flash/ActionScript for everything. Or Java Applets. If there was a time when web folks agreed on a tool set I missed it.
- Silhouette 10y agoIf there was a time when web folks agreed on a tool set I missed it. It's not really about agreeing on everything, though, is it? What matters is having enough standardisation and longevity that you can make intelligent decisions today and expect your code to work for a useful length of time and to play nicely with code written by others who also make intelligent decisions today. You can run a CGI process written in whatever programming language you want under any of the popular web servers today, and it will work essentially the same way as it did 20 years ago. Until browser developers decided that backwards compatibility was too much trouble to continue supporting, which is a relatively recent development, you could also run Flash or Java applets written many years ago with essentially the same results today.
- nostrademons 10y agoThere was a brief period of stability in 06-08 where everyone just used either Rails or Django (pick your poison) + JQuery on the frontend. Once 09 hit everything exploded.