8 ms·

Been there. Done that. For much shorter period than 10 years, but still -- as long as I get paid and interesting stuff to do/research, why should I care if it g

by kbart 10y ago

Been there. Done that. For much shorter period than 10 years, but still -- as long as I get paid and interesting stuff to do/research, why should I care if it goes to production or not?

wnevets 10y ago
>why should I care if it goes to production or not? Having other people actually use the stuff is the best part for me.
- kbart 10y ago
  Well, it probably depends on your area. I work with embedded systems, so I rarely see "people actually use" my products anyway, even if the project is successful and goes to the production as these are mostly niche products and/or part of a bigger system. If I was webdev, that might be different though..
  - cr0sh 10y ago
    Let me tell you what's "depressing" about web development: You finish your part, the web site is done (other team members get their stuff done), you ship to production, it goes live, the client loves it and uses it. Users love it and use it. All is great. Over a year (or more) updates and additions are done to the site and code. Some mods here, a few CSS tweaks there, a whole new module or some new tool for users or the back end. All is going well. Then one day, your team isn't needed any longer - either the customer is completely satisfied with the work, and no longer needs or wants any further updates (and what updates they do need, your back-end you developed can handle it for them). You or your employer never hear from them again, or if you call, they just say "we're all good - the site is running great". Eventually, you note it in your CV and your portfolio and move on. Then, one day, you turn to look for another position elsewhere (maybe years later and an employer or two in the future), and decide to go back thru your old portfolio, both to catch up on what you did, and what it looks like, and also so you can show a future employer or recruiter what you worked on (at least from a user perspective - because you likely don't have back-end access any longer). ...and it's gone. All gone. The client decided to do a complete system update, using a completely different design firm, etc - and the site looks nothing like what it used to. Your work might as well not exist at all, and you no longer work at the old employer, and you don't have a backup of the code or site (because it was a work for hire or such - legally you can't have a copy). Gone. As far as anyone is concerned, you have little to no proof you actually worked on anything. It's a very frustrating thing to see, which is why it is so important to have a portfolio of personal projects and other things to fall back on (and best in a github or other repo). Still - that only softens the blow somewhat; I know that out there have been a couple of small things I worked on that I would love to be able to show in the future, but which are completely lost (my old employer went out of business not long after I left - then again, we didn't part on the greatest of terms, either). At one employer (whom I still use as a reference - they were good to me when I worked for them, but let me go in a downsizing prior to the sale of the company) my software is still in use; don't ask me how - it was written in VB6 and used an Access 2003 MDB backend to serve about 50 users on a daily basis; when they let me go they said they were looking into other options, but they never found one - it has had no updates since 2004, yet still runs and works fine, according to my former supervisor (who's now a VP there). I can't do much more than say what it is to a future employer, though, because it was an internal-use only "product" that was never sold outside of the company. It was basically a custom CRM/issue tracker/billing/reporting/file-packaging and distribution solution that grew in an ad-hoc manner - tightly integrated with the company's business rules; when I left, I was working on transitioning the back-end to a PostgreSQL database (via an ODBC connector), reporting used the Actuate reporting suite (the company was a VAR for them), and the file management stuff used Visual Studio as the back-end. On top of that, I built a small scripting language interpreter (today, I would do something different) to handle online updates and installation (for a time we handled updates by going around with a CD to each user, with the new system, we could target updates per user, per update - we could also roll back things - all from within the application). There was also a similar install system for the file updates sent to clients (their main product was written in DB/C - a COBOL variant - and the file updates were packaged based on the repo in VS - turned into a ZIP file that could be installed using a custom installer I wrote that was similar to InstallShield of the time). Anyhow - I would love to be able to demo it to potential employers, but since it was an internal project, I have nothing to point to in order to even prove I worked on such a system (all I can tell them is to call my former supervisor as a reference - fortunately he still works there, and they still use the software). I was let go in 2004 from that position - so I have one product out there that is still running for 13 years now (fairly amazing to me - I keep expecting a call from them to port it to another platform - but since Windows 10 still supports the VB6 runtime, probably not anytime soon).
    - magic_beans 10y ago
      I always keep screenshots + video walk throughs of apps I build, for this very reason. You can't expect any software to live forever.
    - lutorm 10y ago
      This isn't just true for web development thought. If you worked on building some piece of hardware, a few years later you'd be hard pressed to see any of that hardware still around. I guess you can keep one on your shelf as a memento, but it's not like it would work any better as a demo.
      - blackguardx 10y ago
        I did some hardware design for a product in my first job out of college 10 years ago. They are still shipping it. I'm sure they've updated the boards as parts go EOL (end of life), but they definitely didn't restart from scratch. I would like to get one, but it costs $30k+ [1] [1] http://www.keysight.com/en/pdx-x202266-pn-N9020A/mxa-signal-analyzer-10-hz-to-265-ghz?nid=-32508.1150426&cc=US&lc=eng http://www.keysight.com/en/pdx-x202266-pn-N9020A/mxa-signal-...
- WalterBright 10y ago
  > Having other people actually use the stuff is the best part for me. That's right. It's why I rarely invest the time writing a program just for my own amusement. To me that's like building a model train layout in the basement, that nobody but me will see, and when I sell the house the next owner will rip it all out.
azdle 10y ago
I cared and cared enough to quit. Worked my last (and first real software) job for about 5 years and quit a month ago because of this kind of thing, at least in part. I was getting good at making the v1, but never learning how to really do anything beyond that. And figuring out how to ship an MVP is the least important part, so if that's all you're learning you're missing out on what will make you successful at a place that's actually successful. Plus, I'll just generally disagree with you, sitting there making stuff that falls right into the garbage can is incredibly depressing. What's the point?
- kbart 10y ago
  "What's the point?" The point is that I get still acquire new technical skills and parts of (failed) projects might be challenging and interesting, even though complete project don't result in success (in business meaning). For other points see my response to a sibling comment.
  - azdle 10y ago
    Fair enough. I guess it also depends on how far the projects actually get before they get canned. I assume part of my problem is that I was always working on my projects alone or nearly alone (from a technical contributor perspective), so customer feedback was the only way I was going to get any input on the code I'd produced. Coincidentally, I was also an embedded dev.
- jacquesm 10y ago
  > And figuring out how to ship an MVP is the least important part, so if that's all you're learning you're missing out on what will make you successful at a place that's actually successful. That's actually a very important part and many projects don't even make it that far. This is an extremely valuable skill to have, the actual running of a company beyond that point is a lot simpler and interesting. Don't underestimate this capability you have.
  - Ductapemaster 10y ago
    > the actual running of a company beyond that point is a lot simpler I respectfully disagree. I think that the problem of maintaining a project in the field, providing support, taking feedback and making improvements, and managing a pipeline of new developments alongside sustaining efforts is just as difficult of a problem as getting to an MVP. Both sides take vastly different skillsets, and require people with very different backgrounds to compromise and shift in leadership. That said, I completely agree with your point that the skills of getting an MVP out the door is significant and worthwhile. I know I am on that side of things myself - I enjoy the initial development, brainstorming, hard work, and hard choices that come along with that piece of a project. I jus think that the other side of the coin deserves equal representation.
sodafountan 10y ago
I think most people have an innate desire to have an impact on the world, however large or small it may be. If you work on something for ten years and nobody ever uses it you've made no impact on humanity other than taking. I get the most satisfaction out of life by creating things and having other people use them.
- kbart 10y ago
  I've never had such feeling, but yes, I agree that for most people that's probably the case. Work is just work for me, in spite of I like it a lot. I realize myself through different activities.
- azdle 10y ago
  Why are people down voting this? I understand that there are people out there where their satisfaction with life happens to come from things outside of work. But, I'd hope that those people also would understand that there are people that happen to have their passions line up with their careers, especially on a place like HN.
plainOldText 10y ago
One should care, because knowing that one's creation might reach millions of people, will prompt careful consideration to usability aspects. I guess that's why we have so many poorly designed products, because their creators don't truly care.
gillianlish 10y ago
because then the entire idea of the american economy being based on a meritocratic system where good companies do well and bad companies that make no products fail, and the same goes for workers, is somehow an elaborate lie and a shell game?

by kbart 10y ago

Been there. Done that. For much shorter period than 10 years, but still -- as long as I get paid and interesting stuff to do/research, why should I care if it goes to production or not?

wnevets 10y ago

>why should I care if it goes to production or not? Having other people actually use the stuff is the best part for me.

kbart 10y ago
Well, it probably depends on your area. I work with embedded systems, so I rarely see "people actually use" my products anyway, even if the project is successful and goes to the production as these are mostly niche products and/or part of a bigger system. If I was webdev, that might be different though..
- cr0sh 10y ago
  Let me tell you what's "depressing" about web development: You finish your part, the web site is done (other team members get their stuff done), you ship to production, it goes live, the client loves it and uses it. Users love it and use it. All is great. Over a year (or more) updates and additions are done to the site and code. Some mods here, a few CSS tweaks there, a whole new module or some new tool for users or the back end. All is going well. Then one day, your team isn't needed any longer - either the customer is completely satisfied with the work, and no longer needs or wants any further updates (and what updates they do need, your back-end you developed can handle it for them). You or your employer never hear from them again, or if you call, they just say "we're all good - the site is running great". Eventually, you note it in your CV and your portfolio and move on. Then, one day, you turn to look for another position elsewhere (maybe years later and an employer or two in the future), and decide to go back thru your old portfolio, both to catch up on what you did, and what it looks like, and also so you can show a future employer or recruiter what you worked on (at least from a user perspective - because you likely don't have back-end access any longer). ...and it's gone. All gone. The client decided to do a complete system update, using a completely different design firm, etc - and the site looks nothing like what it used to. Your work might as well not exist at all, and you no longer work at the old employer, and you don't have a backup of the code or site (because it was a work for hire or such - legally you can't have a copy). Gone. As far as anyone is concerned, you have little to no proof you actually worked on anything. It's a very frustrating thing to see, which is why it is so important to have a portfolio of personal projects and other things to fall back on (and best in a github or other repo). Still - that only softens the blow somewhat; I know that out there have been a couple of small things I worked on that I would love to be able to show in the future, but which are completely lost (my old employer went out of business not long after I left - then again, we didn't part on the greatest of terms, either). At one employer (whom I still use as a reference - they were good to me when I worked for them, but let me go in a downsizing prior to the sale of the company) my software is still in use; don't ask me how - it was written in VB6 and used an Access 2003 MDB backend to serve about 50 users on a daily basis; when they let me go they said they were looking into other options, but they never found one - it has had no updates since 2004, yet still runs and works fine, according to my former supervisor (who's now a VP there). I can't do much more than say what it is to a future employer, though, because it was an internal-use only "product" that was never sold outside of the company. It was basically a custom CRM/issue tracker/billing/reporting/file-packaging and distribution solution that grew in an ad-hoc manner - tightly integrated with the company's business rules; when I left, I was working on transitioning the back-end to a PostgreSQL database (via an ODBC connector), reporting used the Actuate reporting suite (the company was a VAR for them), and the file management stuff used Visual Studio as the back-end. On top of that, I built a small scripting language interpreter (today, I would do something different) to handle online updates and installation (for a time we handled updates by going around with a CD to each user, with the new system, we could target updates per user, per update - we could also roll back things - all from within the application). There was also a similar install system for the file updates sent to clients (their main product was written in DB/C - a COBOL variant - and the file updates were packaged based on the repo in VS - turned into a ZIP file that could be installed using a custom installer I wrote that was similar to InstallShield of the time). Anyhow - I would love to be able to demo it to potential employers, but since it was an internal project, I have nothing to point to in order to even prove I worked on such a system (all I can tell them is to call my former supervisor as a reference - fortunately he still works there, and they still use the software). I was let go in 2004 from that position - so I have one product out there that is still running for 13 years now (fairly amazing to me - I keep expecting a call from them to port it to another platform - but since Windows 10 still supports the VB6 runtime, probably not anytime soon).
  - magic_beans 10y ago
    I always keep screenshots + video walk throughs of apps I build, for this very reason. You can't expect any software to live forever.
  - lutorm 10y ago
    This isn't just true for web development thought. If you worked on building some piece of hardware, a few years later you'd be hard pressed to see any of that hardware still around. I guess you can keep one on your shelf as a memento, but it's not like it would work any better as a demo.
    - blackguardx 10y ago
      I did some hardware design for a product in my first job out of college 10 years ago. They are still shipping it. I'm sure they've updated the boards as parts go EOL (end of life), but they definitely didn't restart from scratch. I would like to get one, but it costs $30k+ [1] [1] http://www.keysight.com/en/pdx-x202266-pn-N9020A/mxa-signal-analyzer-10-hz-to-265-ghz?nid=-32508.1150426&cc=US&lc=eng http://www.keysight.com/en/pdx-x202266-pn-N9020A/mxa-signal-...
WalterBright 10y ago
> Having other people actually use the stuff is the best part for me. That's right. It's why I rarely invest the time writing a program just for my own amusement. To me that's like building a model train layout in the basement, that nobody but me will see, and when I sell the house the next owner will rip it all out.

azdle 10y ago

I cared and cared enough to quit. Worked my last (and first real software) job for about 5 years and quit a month ago because of this kind of thing, at least in part. I was getting good at making the v1, but never learning how to really do anything beyond that. And figuring out how to ship an MVP is the least important part, so if that's all you're learning you're missing out on what will make you successful at a place that's actually successful. Plus, I'll just generally disagree with you, sitting there making stuff that falls right into the garbage can is incredibly depressing. What's the point?

kbart 10y ago
"What's the point?" The point is that I get still acquire new technical skills and parts of (failed) projects might be challenging and interesting, even though complete project don't result in success (in business meaning). For other points see my response to a sibling comment.
- azdle 10y ago
  Fair enough. I guess it also depends on how far the projects actually get before they get canned. I assume part of my problem is that I was always working on my projects alone or nearly alone (from a technical contributor perspective), so customer feedback was the only way I was going to get any input on the code I'd produced. Coincidentally, I was also an embedded dev.
jacquesm 10y ago
> And figuring out how to ship an MVP is the least important part, so if that's all you're learning you're missing out on what will make you successful at a place that's actually successful. That's actually a very important part and many projects don't even make it that far. This is an extremely valuable skill to have, the actual running of a company beyond that point is a lot simpler and interesting. Don't underestimate this capability you have.
- Ductapemaster 10y ago
  > the actual running of a company beyond that point is a lot simpler I respectfully disagree. I think that the problem of maintaining a project in the field, providing support, taking feedback and making improvements, and managing a pipeline of new developments alongside sustaining efforts is just as difficult of a problem as getting to an MVP. Both sides take vastly different skillsets, and require people with very different backgrounds to compromise and shift in leadership. That said, I completely agree with your point that the skills of getting an MVP out the door is significant and worthwhile. I know I am on that side of things myself - I enjoy the initial development, brainstorming, hard work, and hard choices that come along with that piece of a project. I jus think that the other side of the coin deserves equal representation.

sodafountan 10y ago

I think most people have an innate desire to have an impact on the world, however large or small it may be. If you work on something for ten years and nobody ever uses it you've made no impact on humanity other than taking. I get the most satisfaction out of life by creating things and having other people use them.

kbart 10y ago
I've never had such feeling, but yes, I agree that for most people that's probably the case. Work is just work for me, in spite of I like it a lot. I realize myself through different activities.
azdle 10y ago
Why are people down voting this? I understand that there are people out there where their satisfaction with life happens to come from things outside of work. But, I'd hope that those people also would understand that there are people that happen to have their passions line up with their careers, especially on a place like HN.

plainOldText 10y ago

One should care, because knowing that one's creation might reach millions of people, will prompt careful consideration to usability aspects. I guess that's why we have so many poorly designed products, because their creators don't truly care.

gillianlish 10y ago

because then the entire idea of the american economy being based on a meritocratic system where good companies do well and bad companies that make no products fail, and the same goes for workers, is somehow an elaborate lie and a shell game?