5 ms·

Yeah, look at them evil Muslims.[1] Fundamentalists, every single one, right? Islam has issues, of course, just like any other ideology. Too bad the Wahhabis ar

Yeah, look at them evil Muslims.[1] Fundamentalists, every single one, right? Islam has issues, of course, just like any other ideology. Too bad the Wahhabis are largely successful in exporting their flavor of Islam.. but I guess that's what happens when you prop up oppressive regimes in the name of stability (and preferential access to natural resources). [1] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZIqdrFeFBk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZIqdrFeFBk

jacquesm 10y ago
The thing that really rams this home for me is pictures of Teheran before the revolution: http://www.vintag.es/2014/09/pictures-of-tehran-iran-ca-1960s-1970s.html http://www.vintag.es/2014/09/pictures-of-tehran-iran-ca-1960... The problem with all this is if it achieves escape velocity then it can take a long long time to undo the damage. We're almost four decades into Iran being an Islamic state and I wonder how that would have all ended if there had not been so much meddling in Iran and Iraq (and less money flowing to the house of Saud). Quite possibly Iran (then Persia) would have been a real powerhouse in the region, highly educated citizenry and vast natural resources.
- pkd 10y ago
  Indeed. Alse Afghanistan before Taliban[1] Very appropriate that the US had a huge hand to play in dislodging the normalcy of life in both of these places. [1] http://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/travel_news/article-3404803/Life-Taliban-Fascinating-photographs-idyllic-Afghanistan-1960s-residents-free-enjoy-outdoor-picnics-colourful-markets.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/travel_news/article-340480...
  - jimmyk 10y ago
    I'm curious why you refer to that as "normalcy". Was that kind of lifestyle really "normal" for the Arab world? Did people outside of major cities live like that? Were the major cities like that for a long period of time? From what I've seen, those Western-looking cities are the anomaly, resulting from either European colonization or from Western-looking rulers seeking to modernize, against the wishes of the general population.
    - jacquesm 10y ago
      We do not have the monopoly on highrises and modern cities. Here is Ethiopia for instance: http://addisairport.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/addisababacity.jpg http://addisairport.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/addisabab... Highrises are simply a function of the price of ground in cities going up dictating more use per square unit of area. And FWIW the roots of most of our civilizations lie in the Arab world, at some point in time those regions were the moderns and our regions were backwards. To directly answer your question: Major cities like that have existed all over the globe for many centuries, the 'modern' look as you call it was most likely inspired by looking abroad but that has never stopped anybody from imitation.
      - jimmyk 10y ago
        I'm not sure why you think I'm talking about the way the skyline looks. I'm talking about the acceptance of modern Western values. Do you really think that has been the normal state of the middle east, and Islamic fundamentalism is the anomaly?
        jacquesm 10y ago
        Define 'Western values'. Turkey was well underway to becoming a very modern state, Iran ditto. All this long before we began propping up the Shah and destabilizing the region around Turkey. The meddling began roughly around the time oil became important and really took off after World War II, in part accelerated because of the cold war. Yes, Islamic fundamentalism is the anomaly, and it would not nearly be as powerful as it is without the CIA and the Saudi's funding and arming their initial round.
        jimmyk 10y ago
        Define 'Western values'. Let's just use this as an example, from the website you linked to above: http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-yOvi_Hupn0M/VA34gNyV1DI/AAAAAAAA8R0/7lzXbK0PuLw/s1600/Tehran%2C%2Bca.%2B1960s-1970s%2B(9).jpg http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-yOvi_Hupn0M/VA34gNyV1DI/AAAAAAAA8R... Do you think that kind of thing was "normal" for the Islamic middle east? Turkey was well underway to becoming a very modern state The temporary modernization of Turkey was a result of having rulers and elites who looked to the west to copy their success. It was absolutely not a result of a popular movement. Modernization was not supported by the bulk of the population at any point in time.

jacquesm 10y ago

The thing that really rams this home for me is pictures of Teheran before the revolution: http://www.vintag.es/2014/09/pictures-of-tehran-iran-ca-1960s-1970s.html http://www.vintag.es/2014/09/pictures-of-tehran-iran-ca-1960... The problem with all this is if it achieves escape velocity then it can take a long long time to undo the damage. We're almost four decades into Iran being an Islamic state and I wonder how that would have all ended if there had not been so much meddling in Iran and Iraq (and less money flowing to the house of Saud). Quite possibly Iran (then Persia) would have been a real powerhouse in the region, highly educated citizenry and vast natural resources.

pkd 10y ago
Indeed. Alse Afghanistan before Taliban[1] Very appropriate that the US had a huge hand to play in dislodging the normalcy of life in both of these places. [1] http://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/travel_news/article-3404803/Life-Taliban-Fascinating-photographs-idyllic-Afghanistan-1960s-residents-free-enjoy-outdoor-picnics-colourful-markets.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/travel_news/article-340480...
- jimmyk 10y ago
  I'm curious why you refer to that as "normalcy". Was that kind of lifestyle really "normal" for the Arab world? Did people outside of major cities live like that? Were the major cities like that for a long period of time? From what I've seen, those Western-looking cities are the anomaly, resulting from either European colonization or from Western-looking rulers seeking to modernize, against the wishes of the general population.
  - jacquesm 10y ago
    We do not have the monopoly on highrises and modern cities. Here is Ethiopia for instance: http://addisairport.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/addisababacity.jpg http://addisairport.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/addisabab... Highrises are simply a function of the price of ground in cities going up dictating more use per square unit of area. And FWIW the roots of most of our civilizations lie in the Arab world, at some point in time those regions were the moderns and our regions were backwards. To directly answer your question: Major cities like that have existed all over the globe for many centuries, the 'modern' look as you call it was most likely inspired by looking abroad but that has never stopped anybody from imitation.
    - jimmyk 10y ago
      I'm not sure why you think I'm talking about the way the skyline looks. I'm talking about the acceptance of modern Western values. Do you really think that has been the normal state of the middle east, and Islamic fundamentalism is the anomaly?
      - jacquesm 10y ago
        Define 'Western values'. Turkey was well underway to becoming a very modern state, Iran ditto. All this long before we began propping up the Shah and destabilizing the region around Turkey. The meddling began roughly around the time oil became important and really took off after World War II, in part accelerated because of the cold war. Yes, Islamic fundamentalism is the anomaly, and it would not nearly be as powerful as it is without the CIA and the Saudi's funding and arming their initial round.
        jimmyk 10y ago
        Define 'Western values'. Let's just use this as an example, from the website you linked to above: http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-yOvi_Hupn0M/VA34gNyV1DI/AAAAAAAA8R0/7lzXbK0PuLw/s1600/Tehran%2C%2Bca.%2B1960s-1970s%2B(9).jpg http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-yOvi_Hupn0M/VA34gNyV1DI/AAAAAAAA8R... Do you think that kind of thing was "normal" for the Islamic middle east? Turkey was well underway to becoming a very modern state The temporary modernization of Turkey was a result of having rulers and elites who looked to the west to copy their success. It was absolutely not a result of a popular movement. Modernization was not supported by the bulk of the population at any point in time.