5 ms·

Acupuncture's molecular effects pinned down

36 points by fogus 16y ago

mikexstudios 16y ago
Full text of article: http://www.nature.com/neuro/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nn.2562.html http://www.nature.com/neuro/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nn.25...
- pygy_ 16y ago
  How come I'm able to read the full text without any university proxy?
tokenadult 16y ago
A good source for reviews of acupuncture studies: http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=5112 http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=5112 http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=4304 http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=4304 http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=4065 http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=4065 http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=2996 http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=2996 Bottom line: claims about efficacy of acupuncture, especially claims about efficacy of acupuncture for human use based on small-n animal studies, need to be carefully reviewed according to the usual guidelines for evaluating research studies. http://norvig.com/experiment-design.html http://norvig.com/experiment-design.html
- Alex3917 16y ago
  This guy seems like kind of a crank, and from what I've read he's wrong as often as he's right. For example, in the first article you linked to he his saying that the idea that acupuncture creates anti-inflammatory proteins is extremely improbable, which is exactly what the parent article proves. And his rant about not believing in the placebo effect is an equally ridiculous strawman, since there are studies that show that if you replace a person's medicine with a placebo they will keep having the same physiological response as they did to the medicine. (See also the converse, Plastic Rose Syndrome.) And, similarly, there are other studies that show that people gain less weight eating liquified food (which tastes bad) as opposed to the same caloric content of non liquified food, and still more studies that show that how much weight people lose from exercise depends more on how long they think they're exercising than how long they're actually exercising. I'm all for sound science, but this guy seems like he's really just a shill for whatever the trendy assumptions-of-the-day behind western medicine happen to be.
  - daeken 16y ago
    I'm interested in "plastic rose syndrome" but google isn't giving me anything that seems relevant. Happen to have a link to some info?
    - ars 16y ago
      It seems to be about allergies, so add that to your search. From what I can tell it's the idea that someone allergic to roses would also be allergic to plastic roses, if he thought the roses were real.
      - Alex3917 16y ago
        This is basically it, that someone who was allergic to roses would also have an allergic reaction if they saw a plastic rose. (The actual incident of a patient having an allergic reaction to a plastic rose was observed by a doctor in the late 19th century, but there are controlled studies showing placebos causing allergic reactions from the modern era.) That is why the anecdotes about allergies being cured with LSD make sense, because if the allergy was psychosomatic to begin with then it would make sense that someone could get over their fear of the substance under the influence of the drug.
    - khafra 16y ago
      Sounds like another name for a nocebo.
  - tokenadult 16y ago
    from what I've read he's wrong as often as he's right [citation needed] I linked to articles by more than one scientifically trained medical doctor, so "he" is not the correct pronoun, unless you are referring to the more-cited author in my reply http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?page_id=223 http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?page_id=223 in his role as executive editor of the Science Based Medicine site. He's not a crank, definitely, and the site has a number of pointed articles by various authors on the use of the "term" shill as an ad-hominem, invalid dismissal of scientific claims. http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?s=shill http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?s=shill
diziet 16y ago
How would one measure discomfort from an injury in mice?
- tedreed 16y ago
  And on what scale was it reduced by 2/3s? What units are those? "Well, the current discomfort level is only 23 microchafes."
  - ars 16y ago
    You measure it like this: http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2010/05/mouse-pain-expression/ http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2010/05/mouse-pain-express... Basically rate the pain level, 1-10, then see how it changes.
skybrian 16y ago
There may be an interesting effect, but I previously read an article questioning whether the study did enough to rule out placebo effects: "Taken on its own merits, this is a nice piece of biochemistry. But what does it really tell us about acupuncture? Does it actually validate this ancient method as a way of relieving pain? After reading the paper, you might walk away with that idea that we’re one step closer to understanding how a treatment with real medical benefits really works [...] "But these results have to be considered in the light of those that came before it. As mentioned above, new scientific discoveries stand on the shoulders of giants and in the case of acupuncture – one of the most well-researched of all “alternative therapies” – those shoulders are particularly large. "Many trials have demonstrated that acupuncture does have some pain-relieving effects – that is not in doubt. And as Steven Novella notes, unlike things like homeopathy or reiki, with acupuncture “something physical is actually happening… so it is therefore not impossible that a physiological response is happening”. But the big questions are whether this effect is genuine of nothing more than a placebo." From: http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2010/05/30/a-biological-basis-for-acupuncture-or-more-evidence-for-a-placebo-effect/ http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2010/05/3...
jaekwon 16y ago
My beef with some acupuncture is that it seems to provide pain relief, but I suspect it doesn't treat the underlying symptoms. If your body hurts but you can still function, let it hurt IMO. It ain't broke so don't fix it.
- daeken 16y ago
  There are two sides to this. One is that pain can be a severe impediment to living your life; I'm currently laying in bed, typing this on my phone, because my neck (which I injured last week) hurts too much to do much of anything else at the moment. I'd welcome pain relief in a heartbeat. The other side, though, is that pain is often a sign that something is wrong. If you're simply getting rid of the pain, you may very well make the issue worse unintentionally, or not notice it getting worse. So yes, pain relief is not necessarily a good thing in all cases, but it's not necessarily bad either.
nix 16y ago
We need a new term for anaesthetic acupuncture which distinguishes it from the much broader benefits claimed by acupuncture advocates. Anaesthetic acupuncture is physiologically plausible and supported by experiment. But any headline about it gets generalized to "acupuncture works" which is misleading.

36 points by fogus 16y ago

Full text of article: http://www.nature.com/neuro/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nn.2562.html http://www.nature.com/neuro/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nn.25...

pygy_ 16y ago
How come I'm able to read the full text without any university proxy?

tokenadult 16y ago

A good source for reviews of acupuncture studies: http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=5112 http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=5112 http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=4304 http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=4304 http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=4065 http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=4065 http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=2996 http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=2996 Bottom line: claims about efficacy of acupuncture, especially claims about efficacy of acupuncture for human use based on small-n animal studies, need to be carefully reviewed according to the usual guidelines for evaluating research studies. http://norvig.com/experiment-design.html http://norvig.com/experiment-design.html

Alex3917 16y ago
This guy seems like kind of a crank, and from what I've read he's wrong as often as he's right. For example, in the first article you linked to he his saying that the idea that acupuncture creates anti-inflammatory proteins is extremely improbable, which is exactly what the parent article proves. And his rant about not believing in the placebo effect is an equally ridiculous strawman, since there are studies that show that if you replace a person's medicine with a placebo they will keep having the same physiological response as they did to the medicine. (See also the converse, Plastic Rose Syndrome.) And, similarly, there are other studies that show that people gain less weight eating liquified food (which tastes bad) as opposed to the same caloric content of non liquified food, and still more studies that show that how much weight people lose from exercise depends more on how long they think they're exercising than how long they're actually exercising. I'm all for sound science, but this guy seems like he's really just a shill for whatever the trendy assumptions-of-the-day behind western medicine happen to be.
- daeken 16y ago
  I'm interested in "plastic rose syndrome" but google isn't giving me anything that seems relevant. Happen to have a link to some info?
  - ars 16y ago
    It seems to be about allergies, so add that to your search. From what I can tell it's the idea that someone allergic to roses would also be allergic to plastic roses, if he thought the roses were real.
    - Alex3917 16y ago
      This is basically it, that someone who was allergic to roses would also have an allergic reaction if they saw a plastic rose. (The actual incident of a patient having an allergic reaction to a plastic rose was observed by a doctor in the late 19th century, but there are controlled studies showing placebos causing allergic reactions from the modern era.) That is why the anecdotes about allergies being cured with LSD make sense, because if the allergy was psychosomatic to begin with then it would make sense that someone could get over their fear of the substance under the influence of the drug.
  - khafra 16y ago
    Sounds like another name for a nocebo.
- tokenadult 16y ago
  from what I've read he's wrong as often as he's right [citation needed] I linked to articles by more than one scientifically trained medical doctor, so "he" is not the correct pronoun, unless you are referring to the more-cited author in my reply http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?page_id=223 http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?page_id=223 in his role as executive editor of the Science Based Medicine site. He's not a crank, definitely, and the site has a number of pointed articles by various authors on the use of the "term" shill as an ad-hominem, invalid dismissal of scientific claims. http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?s=shill http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?s=shill

diziet 16y ago

How would one measure discomfort from an injury in mice?

tedreed 16y ago
And on what scale was it reduced by 2/3s? What units are those? "Well, the current discomfort level is only 23 microchafes."
- ars 16y ago
  You measure it like this: http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2010/05/mouse-pain-expression/ http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2010/05/mouse-pain-express... Basically rate the pain level, 1-10, then see how it changes.

skybrian 16y ago

There may be an interesting effect, but I previously read an article questioning whether the study did enough to rule out placebo effects: "Taken on its own merits, this is a nice piece of biochemistry. But what does it really tell us about acupuncture? Does it actually validate this ancient method as a way of relieving pain? After reading the paper, you might walk away with that idea that we’re one step closer to understanding how a treatment with real medical benefits really works [...] "But these results have to be considered in the light of those that came before it. As mentioned above, new scientific discoveries stand on the shoulders of giants and in the case of acupuncture – one of the most well-researched of all “alternative therapies” – those shoulders are particularly large. "Many trials have demonstrated that acupuncture does have some pain-relieving effects – that is not in doubt. And as Steven Novella notes, unlike things like homeopathy or reiki, with acupuncture “something physical is actually happening… so it is therefore not impossible that a physiological response is happening”. But the big questions are whether this effect is genuine of nothing more than a placebo." From: http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2010/05/30/a-biological-basis-for-acupuncture-or-more-evidence-for-a-placebo-effect/ http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2010/05/3...

jaekwon 16y ago

My beef with some acupuncture is that it seems to provide pain relief, but I suspect it doesn't treat the underlying symptoms. If your body hurts but you can still function, let it hurt IMO. It ain't broke so don't fix it.

daeken 16y ago
There are two sides to this. One is that pain can be a severe impediment to living your life; I'm currently laying in bed, typing this on my phone, because my neck (which I injured last week) hurts too much to do much of anything else at the moment. I'd welcome pain relief in a heartbeat. The other side, though, is that pain is often a sign that something is wrong. If you're simply getting rid of the pain, you may very well make the issue worse unintentionally, or not notice it getting worse. So yes, pain relief is not necessarily a good thing in all cases, but it's not necessarily bad either.

nix 16y ago

We need a new term for anaesthetic acupuncture which distinguishes it from the much broader benefits claimed by acupuncture advocates. Anaesthetic acupuncture is physiologically plausible and supported by experiment. But any headline about it gets generalized to "acupuncture works" which is misleading.