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The article title is spot on. Vancouver is not a megacity, therefore our rent will go up forever. It's unbelievable how relatively expensive rent is to income.

The article title is spot on. Vancouver is not a megacity, therefore our rent will go up forever. It's unbelievable how relatively expensive rent is to income. I'm beginning to wonder why I'm putting up with Vancouver. I'm thinking I will take the first train out of here but that doesn't seem to be coming.

trapperkeeper79 10y ago
From Toronto. We have it worse. We are actually thinking of moving to Vancouver and renting :-p The rents in both places seem the same, except Toronto has shitty traffic, very limited tech opportunities, bad weather, and bugs. I looked around at jobs in Vancouver and it seemed a bit surprising how many tech employers there were. Can you shed light on why you are fed up with V? Where else are you considering?
- Tiktaalik 10y ago
  >Can you shed light on why you are fed up with V? Where else are you considering? - Very expensive with relatively low wages (Vancouver has the lowest median income for someone with a bachelor degree among major Canadian cities) - Near zero possibility to afford to buy anything other than an extremely overpriced shoebox condo.
- mattm 10y ago
  It's more disheartening when you think that just a few hours away in Seattle a developer could be making 50-100% more salary.
  - brilliantcode 10y ago
    It's around $126,000 USD /year in Seattle. [1] They didn't bother listing Vancouver because the salary here is so painfully low with entry level software engineering positions regularly listing $40,000 CAD /year or $30,000 USD /year, which is what a Starbucks barista in Seattle clears. As your experience goes up, so should your salary right? Not in Vancouver. It's around a couple hundred dollars per month in after-tax pay bump provided you've slaved at a company for 5 years minimum. Pretty fucking hard to build a competitive tech company in Vancouver, when people are unmotivated due to depressed wage, high cost of living with no upward mobility. Almost everybody I talk to, housing is a big issue. Everyone is working, commuting on congested public transit, house poor but the image of living in Monaco, coupled with good ol' Canadian Ohwellism, people really don't give a shit about career mobility as long as they have a regular job that will let them sustain a roof over their heads. There is a large brain drain happening here, in 15 years, this city is going to be a very different place. I don't know what the impact of losing long time middle class residents who comprise of the economy. You will be poor but working in Vancouver, and that alone serves as a novelty for newcomers. There's really nothing special in Vancouver, to justify a 100%~300% pay cut (factoring in exchange rate and low Vancouver salary). Vancouver might be multicultural but it's also a ethnically silo'd and very tough to meet people in general as they are very cliquey and stick with their own skin color. Lot of broken dreams and disappointed Canadians/Americans from other provinces/states who tell me these things, which is why I'm writing this long comment to warn those who have a romantic attachment to Vancouver. Fuck Vancouver. [1] : http://wonderfulengineering.com/much-software-engineers-around-world-make/ http://wonderfulengineering.com/much-software-engineers-arou...
    - gabbo 10y ago
      Your point is 100% correct, but IMO that link understates Seattle earnings potential. Probably doesn't include equity/cash bonus, which will happen a lot in Seattle and not so much in Vancouver. Big tech company jobs in Seattle are extremely common, and a big tech company job in Seattle will pay you much more than $126k/year USD when you include stock/cash bonus. Especially a few years into your career. If you're willing/able to be a dev at a big tech company, $200k-$300k/year is absolutely normal 10 years into your career (often much sooner). If you're great, $300k-$400k is completely possible.
      - brilliantcode 10y ago
        I don't think such salaries are sustainable but you are absolutely right in that Vancouverites are taking not a pay cut but a reduction in quality of life overall.
      - cylinder 10y ago
        The difference is there's a huge tech bubble in the US which has blown up salaries for software professionals far ahead of anywhere else in the world. Think about all the flimsy startups funded by free flowing VC cash who will never make money. Once they burn through the cash they are done. When you have millions / billions thrown at you, who cares about paying developers $140k? The money almost means nothing. It's the $150k that software engineers make in the US that's abnormal, not the $50k in Canada or EU. That is where salaries in the US will go once the funny money moves on. Engineer shortage? Not really. This is something that can be learned by studying books, you do not even need a license. Yes, it's hard, technical stuff, but so is Mechanical Engineering yet they don't make these kinds of salaries and they have more barriers to entry. It's funny to see the bias here: high house prices are certainly a bubble, but high software salaries are definitely 100% earned due to amazing abilities to generate wealth and market fundamentals.
- nikanj 10y ago
  Not OP, but Toronto at least has high-ish wages to go with the high rents. In Vancouver, you make less than $100k per year as a dev. And that's CAD, not USD, so under $75k USD. No wonder Amazon, Microsoft and others are expanding in Vancouver like crazy, same timezone as Seattle and San Francisco, an english-speaking population and salary levels 50% lower.

trapperkeeper79 10y ago

From Toronto. We have it worse. We are actually thinking of moving to Vancouver and renting :-p The rents in both places seem the same, except Toronto has shitty traffic, very limited tech opportunities, bad weather, and bugs. I looked around at jobs in Vancouver and it seemed a bit surprising how many tech employers there were. Can you shed light on why you are fed up with V? Where else are you considering?

Tiktaalik 10y ago
>Can you shed light on why you are fed up with V? Where else are you considering? - Very expensive with relatively low wages (Vancouver has the lowest median income for someone with a bachelor degree among major Canadian cities) - Near zero possibility to afford to buy anything other than an extremely overpriced shoebox condo.
mattm 10y ago
It's more disheartening when you think that just a few hours away in Seattle a developer could be making 50-100% more salary.
- brilliantcode 10y ago
  It's around $126,000 USD /year in Seattle. [1] They didn't bother listing Vancouver because the salary here is so painfully low with entry level software engineering positions regularly listing $40,000 CAD /year or $30,000 USD /year, which is what a Starbucks barista in Seattle clears. As your experience goes up, so should your salary right? Not in Vancouver. It's around a couple hundred dollars per month in after-tax pay bump provided you've slaved at a company for 5 years minimum. Pretty fucking hard to build a competitive tech company in Vancouver, when people are unmotivated due to depressed wage, high cost of living with no upward mobility. Almost everybody I talk to, housing is a big issue. Everyone is working, commuting on congested public transit, house poor but the image of living in Monaco, coupled with good ol' Canadian Ohwellism, people really don't give a shit about career mobility as long as they have a regular job that will let them sustain a roof over their heads. There is a large brain drain happening here, in 15 years, this city is going to be a very different place. I don't know what the impact of losing long time middle class residents who comprise of the economy. You will be poor but working in Vancouver, and that alone serves as a novelty for newcomers. There's really nothing special in Vancouver, to justify a 100%~300% pay cut (factoring in exchange rate and low Vancouver salary). Vancouver might be multicultural but it's also a ethnically silo'd and very tough to meet people in general as they are very cliquey and stick with their own skin color. Lot of broken dreams and disappointed Canadians/Americans from other provinces/states who tell me these things, which is why I'm writing this long comment to warn those who have a romantic attachment to Vancouver. Fuck Vancouver. [1] : http://wonderfulengineering.com/much-software-engineers-around-world-make/ http://wonderfulengineering.com/much-software-engineers-arou...
  - gabbo 10y ago
    Your point is 100% correct, but IMO that link understates Seattle earnings potential. Probably doesn't include equity/cash bonus, which will happen a lot in Seattle and not so much in Vancouver. Big tech company jobs in Seattle are extremely common, and a big tech company job in Seattle will pay you much more than $126k/year USD when you include stock/cash bonus. Especially a few years into your career. If you're willing/able to be a dev at a big tech company, $200k-$300k/year is absolutely normal 10 years into your career (often much sooner). If you're great, $300k-$400k is completely possible.
    - brilliantcode 10y ago
      I don't think such salaries are sustainable but you are absolutely right in that Vancouverites are taking not a pay cut but a reduction in quality of life overall.
    - cylinder 10y ago
      The difference is there's a huge tech bubble in the US which has blown up salaries for software professionals far ahead of anywhere else in the world. Think about all the flimsy startups funded by free flowing VC cash who will never make money. Once they burn through the cash they are done. When you have millions / billions thrown at you, who cares about paying developers $140k? The money almost means nothing. It's the $150k that software engineers make in the US that's abnormal, not the $50k in Canada or EU. That is where salaries in the US will go once the funny money moves on. Engineer shortage? Not really. This is something that can be learned by studying books, you do not even need a license. Yes, it's hard, technical stuff, but so is Mechanical Engineering yet they don't make these kinds of salaries and they have more barriers to entry. It's funny to see the bias here: high house prices are certainly a bubble, but high software salaries are definitely 100% earned due to amazing abilities to generate wealth and market fundamentals.
nikanj 10y ago
Not OP, but Toronto at least has high-ish wages to go with the high rents. In Vancouver, you make less than $100k per year as a dev. And that's CAD, not USD, so under $75k USD. No wonder Amazon, Microsoft and others are expanding in Vancouver like crazy, same timezone as Seattle and San Francisco, an english-speaking population and salary levels 50% lower.