8 ms·

There are certainly a lot of factors. People want to live in trendy cities. There's a lot to consider besides rent - culture, nightlife, etc. San Francisco sure

by bpicolo 10y ago

There are certainly a lot of factors. People want to live in trendy cities. There's a lot to consider besides rent - culture, nightlife, etc. San Francisco sure does have some of the best food in the country (and with tech consuming most of spare time the way it is, eating out is really a huge part of culture). Rent definitely ends up being the deal breaker for many, but for others isn't. It's a lot harder for a company to hire top tech talent if they're in Miami / Des Moines, because the Bay Area has a much higher concentration of tech workers. Convincing people to move is hard, especially so for more experienced tech workers who have a life/family somewhere. You need to be getting an insane deal for it to be worth abandoning your friends and family/forcing your partner to find a new job (and I've yet to see tech companies trying to compete on comp vs SF/SV outside of them). Can't run off middle-road new grads alone (Edit: Good point below that top grad talent wants to hit the big cities too).

amyjess 10y ago
You could always do what the founders of TI did: start your own university and grow your own talent. The University of Texas at Dallas, established explicitly for this reason, is probably the reason why Dallas is a tech hub.
- startupdiscuss 10y ago
  Every large city has some schools. Why is it that Austin is a tech hub (UT) but Houston is not (U of H, Rice)? One theory: it is not the school, but the kinds of jobs people get after. Austinites went to work for Dell, and Houstonians went to work for Exxon.
  - CPLX 10y ago
    Exactly. As I watch Downtown Brooklyn seemingly magically transform itself overnight from a collection of third-tier forgotten university offerings to a genuine nexus of tech and engineering education[0] I'm reminded that this dynamic does indeed work in both directions. [0] https://thebridgebk.com/engineering-hub-downtown-brooklyn/ https://thebridgebk.com/engineering-hub-downtown-brooklyn/
  - vonmoltke 10y ago
    Houston is, for some definition of "tech". It's just more focused on petroleum and ocean engineering, which don't get a lot of play I'm these circles.
    - ghaff 10y ago
      Exactly, people in certain circles have this somewhat self-referential definition of tech that means "what they do a lot of in Silicon Valley." And ignore things like the oil industry or pharma/biotech which are very much tech but just don't happen to have much presence in SV.
    - mturmon 10y ago
      This whole thread, unfortunately, is conflating "tech" with "information tech". When talking about "big picture" stuff like national real estate trends and macro-economics, the HN bubble is limiting.
    - _delirium 10y ago
      There are a ton of even pretty straight-up tech jobs in those industries, e.g. ExxonMobil's Houston office has a large machine learning group.
  - amyjess 10y ago
    The Dallas area had several universities before UTD was founded: the University of North Texas, Southern Methodist University, and the University of Texas at Arlington (though UNT had a different name at that time). These existing universities were not STEM schools. What made UTD different was that it was founded by the same people who founded the largest technology company in the area, and they specifically founded it in order to do something about the low number of STEM graduates in the Dallas area. The TI founders went out of their way to engineer a STEM culture in a city that didn't have one just to grow some more talent for their company. From Wikipedia [0]: > Qualified personnel required by TI were not readily available in the Dallas-Fort Worth area because the region's universities did not provide enough graduates with advanced training in engineering and physical sciences. TI was forced to recruit talent from other states during its expansion and the founders observed in 1959 that "To grow industrially, the region must grow academically; it must provide the intellectual atmosphere, which will allow it to compete in the new industries dependent on highly trained and creative minds".[12] To compensate for this shortage they established the Graduate Research Center of the Southwest in 1961. The institute initially was housed in the Fondren Science Library at Southern Methodist University. Land for the center was acquired by Jonsson, McDermott, and Green in Richardson in 1962 and the first facility, the Laboratory of Earth and Planetary Science (later named the Founders Building), opened on the grounds of the present-day UTD campus in 1964. The Graduate Research Center of the Southwest was renamed the Southwest Center for Advanced Studies (SCAS) in 1967 and in 1969 the founders transferred the land and assets of SCAS to the State of Texas. On June 13, 1969 Governor Preston Smith signed the bill adding the institution to the University of Texas System and creating the University of Texas at Dallas. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Texas_at_Dallas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Texas_at_Dallas
deleted 10y ago
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zimzam 10y ago
See, here's the thing about coastal types: they are obsessed with getting the "top" talent, as if every project or startup requires it. What if most startups only need "good" developers to develop their mostly CRUD apps and don't need "the best" developers?
- bpicolo 10y ago
  It's true that not everybody needs it, that's a separate argument probably. Companies that feel they don't are often outsourcing though, no? There's definitely the argument of "talent pays for itself (in multiples)" to think about.
- crispyambulance 10y ago
  What they say they're getting ("the top talent") and what they actually get are two separate things.
  - mcguire 10y ago
    Hey, the worst graduate from Stanford is better than the best graduate of Ohio State, right?
    - jamiek88 10y ago
      Sarcasm?
      - mcguire 10y ago
        Yup.
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
- deanCommie 10y ago
jimlawruk 10y ago
Exactly right. Young people today would rather be poor in a "trendy" city, than rich in a not so trendy one. It has almost become a badge of honor of how much you can rough it to stay afloat in X trendy city. I am guessing it was not like this for previous generations, and I think it leads to too much homogeneity of culture. I think we should start to encouraging people to go to a uncool city and help build it up and make it cool.
- bpicolo 10y ago
  I was speaking with a friend about this recently. I do think we'll see growth in smaller cities, kind of like how Austin exploded. I think an interesting aspect of this is the job problem. Jobs are getting more scarce outside cities as industries change it seems, and I wonder how that might affect population movement.
- pantalaimon 10y ago
  > I think we should start to encouraging people to go to a uncool city and help build it up and make it cool. While this is a laudable project and it works in some places, many rural citys are very conservative and against anything new the youth might be interested in.
  - iamatworknow 10y ago
    This is the issue I face in the area where I grew up and still reside in rural New York. If you read the newspaper editorials it's a constant string of racist and homophobic garbage. I'm approaching 30 and it's very hard to find like minded people here, much less single women with ambitions and who aren't just looking for a baby daddy. So why haven't I moved? Frankly I'm scared that I can't cut it elsewhere. My job is secure and pays very well for the area (as a single person I make about 160% of the median family income). I could move and work remotely for the same amount which would result in a drastic decrease in quality of life, or try to get another job that I'm probably not qualified for. I've been trying to figure it out for the better part of a decade now.
    - 10y ago
ryandrake 10y ago
> People want to live in trendy cities. There's a lot to consider besides rent - culture, nightlife, etc. San Francisco sure does have some of the best food in the country We're talking about tech workers though. I don't know about you, but my whole life as a tech worker, I've gotten up at the crack of dawn, worked all day, come home late at night exhausted and passed out sleeping until the next day. I don't even know what city I live in because I NEVER SEE IT. Culture? Nightlife? What the hell are they? It doesn't make sense that tech workers would care about these things because we never get to take advantage of them.
- dpark 10y ago
  You should get a better job if you spend all your waking hours working. "Better than 16 hours a day" isn't a high bar.
- pavel_lishin 10y ago
  > It doesn't make sense that tech workers would care about these things because we never get to take advantage of them. Not all tech workers are 12-hour-a-day workaholics. Why are you killing yourself at work?
  - bradstewart 10y ago
    Because I legitimately find work more stimulating and enjoyable than most other things. Which isn't to say I don't do other things I find enjoyable, but I have no qualms about working 10+ hours a day.
  - QuantumGravy 10y ago
    Why would you get paid six figures as a tech worker unless you're a workaholic? If you're not putting those hours in at work, surely you're putting in those hours in for both fun and personal growth at home, right? You're passionate about code, aren't you? ...no, I'm not honestly asking that, but those are the questions I'd expect to fend off.
    - pavel_lishin 10y ago
steffan 10y ago
My counter-anecdote - it seems to have been very hard to hire a Consulting Engineer in the Bay Area for my team. We've had plenty of candidates (some very good) from other cities, but haven't yet found anyone in SF or the surrounding areas. Could be issues with our sourcing, perhaps, but it seems surprisingly difficult. (PM me if you'd like to be a counter-example)

by bpicolo 10y ago

amyjess 10y ago

You could always do what the founders of TI did: start your own university and grow your own talent. The University of Texas at Dallas, established explicitly for this reason, is probably the reason why Dallas is a tech hub.

startupdiscuss 10y ago
Every large city has some schools. Why is it that Austin is a tech hub (UT) but Houston is not (U of H, Rice)? One theory: it is not the school, but the kinds of jobs people get after. Austinites went to work for Dell, and Houstonians went to work for Exxon.
- CPLX 10y ago
  Exactly. As I watch Downtown Brooklyn seemingly magically transform itself overnight from a collection of third-tier forgotten university offerings to a genuine nexus of tech and engineering education[0] I'm reminded that this dynamic does indeed work in both directions. [0] https://thebridgebk.com/engineering-hub-downtown-brooklyn/ https://thebridgebk.com/engineering-hub-downtown-brooklyn/
- vonmoltke 10y ago
  Houston is, for some definition of "tech". It's just more focused on petroleum and ocean engineering, which don't get a lot of play I'm these circles.
  - ghaff 10y ago
    Exactly, people in certain circles have this somewhat self-referential definition of tech that means "what they do a lot of in Silicon Valley." And ignore things like the oil industry or pharma/biotech which are very much tech but just don't happen to have much presence in SV.
  - mturmon 10y ago
    This whole thread, unfortunately, is conflating "tech" with "information tech". When talking about "big picture" stuff like national real estate trends and macro-economics, the HN bubble is limiting.
  - _delirium 10y ago
    There are a ton of even pretty straight-up tech jobs in those industries, e.g. ExxonMobil's Houston office has a large machine learning group.
- amyjess 10y ago
  The Dallas area had several universities before UTD was founded: the University of North Texas, Southern Methodist University, and the University of Texas at Arlington (though UNT had a different name at that time). These existing universities were not STEM schools. What made UTD different was that it was founded by the same people who founded the largest technology company in the area, and they specifically founded it in order to do something about the low number of STEM graduates in the Dallas area. The TI founders went out of their way to engineer a STEM culture in a city that didn't have one just to grow some more talent for their company. From Wikipedia [0]: > Qualified personnel required by TI were not readily available in the Dallas-Fort Worth area because the region's universities did not provide enough graduates with advanced training in engineering and physical sciences. TI was forced to recruit talent from other states during its expansion and the founders observed in 1959 that "To grow industrially, the region must grow academically; it must provide the intellectual atmosphere, which will allow it to compete in the new industries dependent on highly trained and creative minds".[12] To compensate for this shortage they established the Graduate Research Center of the Southwest in 1961. The institute initially was housed in the Fondren Science Library at Southern Methodist University. Land for the center was acquired by Jonsson, McDermott, and Green in Richardson in 1962 and the first facility, the Laboratory of Earth and Planetary Science (later named the Founders Building), opened on the grounds of the present-day UTD campus in 1964. The Graduate Research Center of the Southwest was renamed the Southwest Center for Advanced Studies (SCAS) in 1967 and in 1969 the founders transferred the land and assets of SCAS to the State of Texas. On June 13, 1969 Governor Preston Smith signed the bill adding the institution to the University of Texas System and creating the University of Texas at Dallas. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Texas_at_Dallas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Texas_at_Dallas

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

zimzam 10y ago

See, here's the thing about coastal types: they are obsessed with getting the "top" talent, as if every project or startup requires it. What if most startups only need "good" developers to develop their mostly CRUD apps and don't need "the best" developers?

bpicolo 10y ago
It's true that not everybody needs it, that's a separate argument probably. Companies that feel they don't are often outsourcing though, no? There's definitely the argument of "talent pays for itself (in multiples)" to think about.
crispyambulance 10y ago
What they say they're getting ("the top talent") and what they actually get are two separate things.
- mcguire 10y ago
  Hey, the worst graduate from Stanford is better than the best graduate of Ohio State, right?
  - jamiek88 10y ago
    Sarcasm?
    - mcguire 10y ago
      Yup.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
deanCommie 10y ago

jimlawruk 10y ago

Exactly right. Young people today would rather be poor in a "trendy" city, than rich in a not so trendy one. It has almost become a badge of honor of how much you can rough it to stay afloat in X trendy city. I am guessing it was not like this for previous generations, and I think it leads to too much homogeneity of culture. I think we should start to encouraging people to go to a uncool city and help build it up and make it cool.

bpicolo 10y ago
I was speaking with a friend about this recently. I do think we'll see growth in smaller cities, kind of like how Austin exploded. I think an interesting aspect of this is the job problem. Jobs are getting more scarce outside cities as industries change it seems, and I wonder how that might affect population movement.
pantalaimon 10y ago
> I think we should start to encouraging people to go to a uncool city and help build it up and make it cool. While this is a laudable project and it works in some places, many rural citys are very conservative and against anything new the youth might be interested in.
- iamatworknow 10y ago
  This is the issue I face in the area where I grew up and still reside in rural New York. If you read the newspaper editorials it's a constant string of racist and homophobic garbage. I'm approaching 30 and it's very hard to find like minded people here, much less single women with ambitions and who aren't just looking for a baby daddy. So why haven't I moved? Frankly I'm scared that I can't cut it elsewhere. My job is secure and pays very well for the area (as a single person I make about 160% of the median family income). I could move and work remotely for the same amount which would result in a drastic decrease in quality of life, or try to get another job that I'm probably not qualified for. I've been trying to figure it out for the better part of a decade now.
  - 10y ago

ryandrake 10y ago

> People want to live in trendy cities. There's a lot to consider besides rent - culture, nightlife, etc. San Francisco sure does have some of the best food in the country We're talking about tech workers though. I don't know about you, but my whole life as a tech worker, I've gotten up at the crack of dawn, worked all day, come home late at night exhausted and passed out sleeping until the next day. I don't even know what city I live in because I NEVER SEE IT. Culture? Nightlife? What the hell are they? It doesn't make sense that tech workers would care about these things because we never get to take advantage of them.

dpark 10y ago
You should get a better job if you spend all your waking hours working. "Better than 16 hours a day" isn't a high bar.
pavel_lishin 10y ago
> It doesn't make sense that tech workers would care about these things because we never get to take advantage of them. Not all tech workers are 12-hour-a-day workaholics. Why are you killing yourself at work?
- bradstewart 10y ago
  Because I legitimately find work more stimulating and enjoyable than most other things. Which isn't to say I don't do other things I find enjoyable, but I have no qualms about working 10+ hours a day.
- QuantumGravy 10y ago
  Why would you get paid six figures as a tech worker unless you're a workaholic? If you're not putting those hours in at work, surely you're putting in those hours in for both fun and personal growth at home, right? You're passionate about code, aren't you? ...no, I'm not honestly asking that, but those are the questions I'd expect to fend off.
  - pavel_lishin 10y ago

steffan 10y ago

My counter-anecdote - it seems to have been very hard to hire a Consulting Engineer in the Bay Area for my team. We've had plenty of candidates (some very good) from other cities, but haven't yet found anyone in SF or the surrounding areas. Could be issues with our sourcing, perhaps, but it seems surprisingly difficult. (PM me if you'd like to be a counter-example)