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Thank our spineless Western leaders for committing war crimes in Yemen... From american white phosphorus weapons [0] to british cluster bombs [1]. [0] https://

Thank our spineless Western leaders for committing war crimes in Yemen... From american white phosphorus weapons [0] to british cluster bombs [1]. [0] https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/checkpoint/wp/2016/09/19/saudi-arabia-appears-to-be-using-u-s-supplied-white-phosphorus-in-its-war-in-yemen/?utm_term=.086d22acf631 https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/checkpoint/wp/2016/09/19... [1] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/dec/19/saudis-dropped-british-cluster-bombs-in-yemen-fallon-tells-commons https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/dec/19/saudis-dropped...

tunocina 10y ago
Having done that does not mean our borders had to open for bitter, fighting age men.
- jacquesm 10y ago
  It's a bit of a problem, but 'you break it, you own it' is a good rule. See also: Iraq, Afghanistan, Egypt and a very large number of other places where proxy wars between western states and meddling in local affairs in order to gain the upper hand in veiled conflicts over resources have made the world a much worse place for a very large number of people.
  - tunocina 10y ago
    Our elites broke it, I don't understand why plain civilians like you have to own it. Why do you feel responsible for those wars? Why do you feel like you have to pay the toll for it? Honest questions.
    - jacquesm 10y ago
      Don't you get to vote where you live?
      - tunocina 10y ago
        I get to vote but, in democracy, we are a drop in the ocean. In any case what's done is done, and if we've already waged war on them, it makes no sense to open our borders to them because most of them are bitter at us and some of them want to and have succeeded in killing us in our own soil. It's simply a security issue. There are millions of Muslims now scattered everywhere in Europe, and these last attacks are simply the beginning. Now Erdogan can threaten us because he has a dormant army everywhere. And we let them in, like a trojan horse. (I'm European)
        jacquesm 10y ago
        > I get to vote but, in democracy, we are a drop in the ocean. No, we all together own the result and fractionally each of us. That's the price of living in a democracy, and one I gladly accept. In a dictatorship you could argue like you do (and even there there are options, but with a much higher personal price). > In any case what's done is done, and if we've already waged war on them, it makes no sense to open our borders to them because most of them are bitter at us and some of them want to and have succeeded in killing us in our own soil. That is a vanishingly small fraction of those entering. In fact, the vast majority would like nothing better than to turn back if not for the fact that their lives are in danger where they lived. Sure, there are people who move with economic motives, but those are even less likely to be a danger. > It's simply a security issue. Yes, it is a security issue. And you deal with that like you deal with any other security issue: through law enforcement. > There are millions of Muslims now scattered everywhere in Europe, and these last attacks are simply the beginning. Do you actually believe that these 'millions of Muslims' are going to pick up arms and attack the citizens of the countries they have shared their lives with and who for the most part employ them and ensure their bread is buttered over the silly statements of some dictator? What you'll likely see is some angry youths who might rebel, but that's not too far from what Western raised youths do when given half a chance. There are plenty of examples of that. And given that if your name is 'Muhammed' or 'Mustafa' or your skin a little bit different than lily white they actually have some reasons to be upset. > Now Erdogan can threaten us because he has a dormant army everywhere. No, sorry, he really doesn't. Erdogan, for all his bluster is incapable of ruling Turkey the way he wants to without vast human rights violations, there is little to no chance of him being able to rouse the Turks in Western European societies in the numbers required to cause a real problem. That does leave open the door to polarization and escalation, and because of that those need to be fought tooth and nail, we all of us living here, Turks, Morroccans (and their children, who usually have the nationality of the country they were born in), refugees and natives (who likely were refugees of some war a couple of generations back) need to work out our differences and settle on something long-term viable and give Erdogan the collective finger. And for the most part, we are doing just that. A few hundred misguided people are not going to change anything, and there are plenty of misguided people in our own ranks.
    - krapp 10y ago
      Americans supported the government and military which waged those wars. Americans absolutely do own the result, morally and financially.
  - redsummer 10y ago
    The US did the breaking. Sweden had to 'own it'.
    - jacquesm 10y ago
      The US not being very good at cleaning up the messes they make is fairly well documented, props to the Swedes (and quite a few other countries besides) for doing far more than their fair share (which would have been 'nothing to very little') in this.
  - jimmyk 10y ago
    It's a bit of a problem, but 'you break it, you own it' is a good rule. A good rule for who, exactly?
    - jacquesm 10y ago
      The world. Just like 'polluter pays'.
      - jimmyk 10y ago
        It's good for everyone in the world? Or it's good for the average person in the world?
        jacquesm 10y ago
        We all share that world don't we? So everyone. Even the richest people still breathe the air.
        jimmyk 10y ago
        I'm not talking about pollution, I'm talking about the rule "you break it you own it" applied to geopolitics.
        jacquesm 10y ago
        Same principle, really. In geopolitics if you either go to war or you decide to do some empire building if you want things to remain stable after you turn your back you end up being responsible for the aftermath. And if things go pear shaped and you turn your back they likely will come to haunt you in one way or another. These are not laws, merely extracts from observable reality, from Roman times right up to the present. Sure it could end different but for some reason it never does.
        jimmyk 10y ago
        but 'you break it, you own it' is a good rule. You are suggesting that westerners should, of their own accord, import millions of fighting age and potentially bitter men into their homelands. You admit this is a 'bit of a problem' for those westerners. Now you are suggesting that if westerners choose not to import these millions of people into their homelands, some nebulous force will haunt them. And your basis for this claim is, ultimately, the fact that civilizations tend to fall apart after a while? Given the enormous complexity of the causes of the downfall of great civilizations, do you realize how absurd that sounds? Given the enormous, albeit temporary (as all things are), success of civilizations that didn't feel bad about taking advantage of their neighbors, do you understand why your argument is so unpersuasive?

tunocina 10y ago

Having done that does not mean our borders had to open for bitter, fighting age men.

jacquesm 10y ago
It's a bit of a problem, but 'you break it, you own it' is a good rule. See also: Iraq, Afghanistan, Egypt and a very large number of other places where proxy wars between western states and meddling in local affairs in order to gain the upper hand in veiled conflicts over resources have made the world a much worse place for a very large number of people.
- tunocina 10y ago
  Our elites broke it, I don't understand why plain civilians like you have to own it. Why do you feel responsible for those wars? Why do you feel like you have to pay the toll for it? Honest questions.
  - jacquesm 10y ago
    Don't you get to vote where you live?
    - tunocina 10y ago
      I get to vote but, in democracy, we are a drop in the ocean. In any case what's done is done, and if we've already waged war on them, it makes no sense to open our borders to them because most of them are bitter at us and some of them want to and have succeeded in killing us in our own soil. It's simply a security issue. There are millions of Muslims now scattered everywhere in Europe, and these last attacks are simply the beginning. Now Erdogan can threaten us because he has a dormant army everywhere. And we let them in, like a trojan horse. (I'm European)
      - jacquesm 10y ago
        > I get to vote but, in democracy, we are a drop in the ocean. No, we all together own the result and fractionally each of us. That's the price of living in a democracy, and one I gladly accept. In a dictatorship you could argue like you do (and even there there are options, but with a much higher personal price). > In any case what's done is done, and if we've already waged war on them, it makes no sense to open our borders to them because most of them are bitter at us and some of them want to and have succeeded in killing us in our own soil. That is a vanishingly small fraction of those entering. In fact, the vast majority would like nothing better than to turn back if not for the fact that their lives are in danger where they lived. Sure, there are people who move with economic motives, but those are even less likely to be a danger. > It's simply a security issue. Yes, it is a security issue. And you deal with that like you deal with any other security issue: through law enforcement. > There are millions of Muslims now scattered everywhere in Europe, and these last attacks are simply the beginning. Do you actually believe that these 'millions of Muslims' are going to pick up arms and attack the citizens of the countries they have shared their lives with and who for the most part employ them and ensure their bread is buttered over the silly statements of some dictator? What you'll likely see is some angry youths who might rebel, but that's not too far from what Western raised youths do when given half a chance. There are plenty of examples of that. And given that if your name is 'Muhammed' or 'Mustafa' or your skin a little bit different than lily white they actually have some reasons to be upset. > Now Erdogan can threaten us because he has a dormant army everywhere. No, sorry, he really doesn't. Erdogan, for all his bluster is incapable of ruling Turkey the way he wants to without vast human rights violations, there is little to no chance of him being able to rouse the Turks in Western European societies in the numbers required to cause a real problem. That does leave open the door to polarization and escalation, and because of that those need to be fought tooth and nail, we all of us living here, Turks, Morroccans (and their children, who usually have the nationality of the country they were born in), refugees and natives (who likely were refugees of some war a couple of generations back) need to work out our differences and settle on something long-term viable and give Erdogan the collective finger. And for the most part, we are doing just that. A few hundred misguided people are not going to change anything, and there are plenty of misguided people in our own ranks.
  - krapp 10y ago
    Americans supported the government and military which waged those wars. Americans absolutely do own the result, morally and financially.
- redsummer 10y ago
  The US did the breaking. Sweden had to 'own it'.
  - jacquesm 10y ago
    The US not being very good at cleaning up the messes they make is fairly well documented, props to the Swedes (and quite a few other countries besides) for doing far more than their fair share (which would have been 'nothing to very little') in this.
- jimmyk 10y ago
  It's a bit of a problem, but 'you break it, you own it' is a good rule. A good rule for who, exactly?
  - jacquesm 10y ago
    The world. Just like 'polluter pays'.
    - jimmyk 10y ago
      It's good for everyone in the world? Or it's good for the average person in the world?
      - jacquesm 10y ago
        We all share that world don't we? So everyone. Even the richest people still breathe the air.
        jimmyk 10y ago
        I'm not talking about pollution, I'm talking about the rule "you break it you own it" applied to geopolitics.
        jacquesm 10y ago
        Same principle, really. In geopolitics if you either go to war or you decide to do some empire building if you want things to remain stable after you turn your back you end up being responsible for the aftermath. And if things go pear shaped and you turn your back they likely will come to haunt you in one way or another. These are not laws, merely extracts from observable reality, from Roman times right up to the present. Sure it could end different but for some reason it never does.
        jimmyk 10y ago
        but 'you break it, you own it' is a good rule. You are suggesting that westerners should, of their own accord, import millions of fighting age and potentially bitter men into their homelands. You admit this is a 'bit of a problem' for those westerners. Now you are suggesting that if westerners choose not to import these millions of people into their homelands, some nebulous force will haunt them. And your basis for this claim is, ultimately, the fact that civilizations tend to fall apart after a while? Given the enormous complexity of the causes of the downfall of great civilizations, do you realize how absurd that sounds? Given the enormous, albeit temporary (as all things are), success of civilizations that didn't feel bad about taking advantage of their neighbors, do you understand why your argument is so unpersuasive?