7 ms·

A software engineer in a startup in berlin earns maybe a median salary of 60k euros ayear at a 40% tax rate. Thats less of what interns make in the us at a 30%

A software engineer in a startup in berlin earns maybe a median salary of 60k euros ayear at a 40% tax rate. Thats less of what interns make in the us at a 30% tax rate. An experienced engineer at google or facebook make 200k with a sizable signup bonus. As far as I know, theres no comparison between what a soft dev makes in the us and what he makes in europe. This is from someone that lives in south america, and is considering moving to either europe, NZ or America, and hands down america pays so much more than anything else. Not to mention that people criticizing work-life balance of engineers in the us havent visited google offices.

probably_wrong 10y ago
If you end up choosing the US, and go to an at will state, keep in mind that your employer can fire you for wearing the wrong color of socks, even if they never told you which color is the right one (no, really). I think it boils down to whether you want to take care of yourself, or if you let the state do it for you. I would definitely take the 60K if it includes awesome public transport, unemployment money, affordable healthcare, a month of holidays, and having free time in the evenings for hobbies. Your priorities, of course, may be different.
- tbrownaw 10y ago
  If you end up choosing the US, and go to an at will state, keep in mind that your employer can fire you for wearing the wrong color of socks, even if they never told you which color is the right one (no, really). Getting new hires up to speed is expensive enough that they'd be pretty stupid to actually do this. Sure a few do, but it isn't common. Also, a couple minutes with google turns up this: https://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DataSetCode=AVD_DUR https://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DataSetCode=AVD_DUR . If it says what I think it says, getting a new job really is easier in the US (like it should be, because as any economist will tell you this is what has to happen when a bad hire is less of a disaster for the employer). I think it boils down to whether you want to take care of yourself, or if you let the state do it for you. In part, yes. But also, there are two approaches to reducing downtime. You can increase MTBF (make things more reliable, make it harder to get fired); or you can reduce MTTR (make things easier to fix, make it easier to get hired somewhere new). Europe goes with the first approach, the US goes with the second (which I very much prefer, because it doesn't gum things up). Separately, there's also making downtime less of a problem (failover systems, all the various other social safety net things). The US is generally known to kinda suck at this.
  - whiskers08xmt 10y ago
    It's not all of Europe which has strict laws about firing people. For an example, the Danish concept of "Flexicurity"[0], where the state protects the worker against the financial trouble of getting fired, but not getting fired itself. Of course, this tend to lead to a rather high tax rate. [0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flexicurity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flexicurity
  - nkrisc 10y ago
    >Getting new hires up to speed is expensive enough that they'd be pretty stupid to actually do this. Sure a few do, but it isn't common. I believe the point they were making is simply that they can. You're not protected (aside from the small handful of reason that actually are protected).
- conanbatt 10y ago
  > If you end up choosing the US, and go to an at will state, keep in mind that your employer can fire you for wearing the wrong color of socks, even if they never told you which color is the right one (no, really) I live in a country where you have to pay insurmountable amounts of money to fire employees. The salaries that us pays are about 8x. Gimme at will employment. > I would definitely take the 60K if it includes awesome public transport, unemployment money, affordable healthcare, a month of holidays, and having free time in the evenings for hobbies. I had plenty of free time in SF to do whatever i wanted when I worked there. Maybe i was lucky, but i did not find work-life balance to be particularly out of whack. Europe is more relaxed, but also less ambitious in terms of culture. That can be frustrating as well. > I would definitely take the 60K if it includes awesome public transport, unemployment money, affordable healthcare, a month of holidays, and having free time in the evenings for hobbies. You are paying for all those things, its not like they are free in europe. You can also pay for them in the US on software engineer salaries. Google has ample pto, facebook has parental rights, etc. You can always take unpaid time off, something easier to do in the US than in other countries.
- dmm 10y ago
  > your employer can fire you for wearing the wrong color of socks Adding restrictions on employer's ability to fire makes employers far less likely to hire. It enriches the already employed at the expense of the unemployed. If anything it makes more sense to have at-will employment in countries with strong social safety nets because unemployment is less disruptive there.
Oletros 10y ago
> Not to mention that people criticizing work-life balance of engineers in the us havent visited google offices. Office are part of work, not part of life
nommm-nommm 10y ago
Oh please, no. Please don't "improve" work life balance by making work more "fun" a la Google. I don't want to have "fun" at work, I want to have plenty of time off work to be with my family.
- nkrisc 10y ago
  I've not worked for Google, but their campus always struck me as a slick disguise for a poor work-life balance for single twenty-somethings.
cabernal 10y ago
I would say there's no comparison between what a developer makes in the US with the rest of the world.
lovich 10y ago
You're comparing median salary in Berlin with the high end in the US, and you are ignoring much of the complexities that were already mentioned such as the incredibley high cost of living in San Francisco where google and facebook pay those salaries. I'm in the Boston market and median salary for devs is around 80-90k when you include all skill levels, but every single dev I know has roommates or an hour+ commute into the city and higher healthcare costs than Germany. I'd believe that you would make more overall money in the US once you got to the higher end of the market, but it's not as simple as a calculation as you are making it out to be
- emodendroket 10y ago
  > every single dev I know has roommates or an hour+ commute into the city They should probably look for housing near a commuter rail then
  - nkrisc 10y ago
    That's the "has roommates" part. That housing is going to be more expensive.
    - emodendroket 10y ago
      I live in the South Shore near the commuter rail. It's pretty affordable for someone making $80k.
      - lovich 10y ago
        Do you not have student loans? A few people in my social circle managed to get out of college without them through parents paying/scholarships and they have a much different calculus than the majority of us
        emodendroket 10y ago
        My wife had some, but not a lot, and they're paid off now. So, yeah, you might be right.
cjCamel 10y ago
We have Google offices in Europe too you know.
- conanbatt 10y ago
  Also in Argentina.
watwut 10y ago
I can not have aging grandma nor children in google offices. I can not engage in personal hobbies that are not company sanctioned there. I dont have privacy there.
falcolas 10y ago
A software engineer in SF is also paying somewhere around 400% more for housing, and 100% more for everything else than a software engineer in Berlin. Quite an important note when comparing salaries. Higher costs, lower stability, and no safety net... I think that I would prefer that Berlin salary (and I'm a US resident).
- emodendroket 10y ago
  Most devs do not work in San Francisco and the salaries in cities with more reasonable costs of living are still pretty good.
nxtrafalgar 10y ago
Take living costs and so forth into account also. California probably isn't as great at the figures suggest. That said, speaking as a New Zealander: don't come here. There are no jobs, and if you find one, you will be underpaid. If you're looking for the weather and standard-of-living combination offered by the southern hemisphere, consider Melbourne or Sydney instead. Very few of my graduating class at the University of Auckland will end up remaining in the city, I suspect.
- conanbatt 10y ago
  Wow this is true? I just heard NZ was doing a state sponsored world-wide call for workers. Is it because people are leaving? Where are they leaving to?
  - nxtrafalgar 10y ago
    I mean, there are jobs generally, but not really in tech. I was slightly exaggerating to say there are 'no' jobs, but in reality the NZ tech industry is not very mature. If people leave, normally they leave for Australia (because it's very easy to do so).
alkonaut 10y ago
> An experienced engineer at google or facebook make 200k with a sizable signup bonus. I think Silicon Valley megacorps are exceptional outliers. Obviously people can make silly money at Google, but so do athletes in the largest leagues. It's just not a useful comparison between continents with millions of employees. Exclude the top 10% and bottom 10% makes for a more reasonable comparison.
- emodendroket 10y ago
  They are, but the OP's point is fair even if we're looking at more "typical" US salaries for software engineering.
whiskers08xmt 10y ago
Cost of living is always important to consider. Looking at this site[0] for a ballpark figure, it would seem that someone living in San Francisco needs to be earning at least the double of someone in Berlin, to afford the same standard of living. San Francisco is still a very attractive place to work as a Software Engineer, but it's not as black and white, as the huge difference in pay might make it look. [0] https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=Germany&city1=Berlin&country2=United+States&city2=San+Francisco%2C+CA https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?cou...
- conanbatt 10y ago
  Software engineers most of the time get fed by the company and i distrust, at least with my spending habits, the cost of consumer prices like clothing or gadgets being cheaper in europe than in the us. Housing is the main difference: you can get a fairly large place in berlin, and you can have a family there. But SF is one city, there are pleny of other cities in the us more family friendly (if not any other city). I remember recently a map showing the purchasing power by salary per state, and the biggest purchasing power was nebraska.
cozicoolmail 10y ago
"Not to mentioned that people criticizing work-life balance of engineers in the us haven't visited google offices." Google and other tech companies in the U.S having nice offices doesn't mean the work life balance of Googlers is something to envy. Probably the opposite actually (three meals a day makes you stay there for dinner, nap rooms to let you stay even later). Not a great work life balance. Source: know Googlers, have been to Google offices
- conanbatt 10y ago
  As far as I saw, the ambiance was pretty relaxed, and there were plenty of benefits like gyms, music studios, hardware shops, etc to delve into hobbies. Im sure there are people working 12 hours a day, and im sure the vast majority barely work their 8.
- mirimir 10y ago
  When I was in grad school, I sometimes worked for days straight, with just naps.
bunburying 10y ago
As a former Googler who was involved in comparing pay across Google sites, Zurich was on par with Mountain View in gross pay (and ahead of New York), and after-tax pay was markedly higher in Zurich. While Berlin is a great city, it is very far from being a top-pay city in Europe.
- conanbatt 10y ago
  are you swiss? how easy is it for a foreigner to work in zurich?
  - bunburying 10y ago
    I was in the London office (until a year ago) and led an engineering team spanning London, Zurich and New York. The majority of Google Zurich's engineers are not Swiss—elsewhere from Europe, from across Asia and many from the US.
- theYipster 10y ago
  After tax pay better be higher in Zurich... it's one of the most expensive cities to live in, especially as an ex-pat, in the world (and considerably more pricey than SF.)
redwood 10y ago
Cost of living there is low and with phenomenal transit and medical benefits
mpweiher 10y ago
When I was in the US working first at Apple and later at Livescribe, I was essentially breaking even on salary vs. cost of living. Moving back to Berlin, I went part time because it was sufficient.
- conanbatt 10y ago
  Break-even with an apple eng salary in the us? I cant believe that is true.
  - ssalazar 10y ago
    Not sure about break-even, but Apple notoriously underpays relative to the rest of SV and the caliber of work/time expected.

probably_wrong 10y ago

If you end up choosing the US, and go to an at will state, keep in mind that your employer can fire you for wearing the wrong color of socks, even if they never told you which color is the right one (no, really). I think it boils down to whether you want to take care of yourself, or if you let the state do it for you. I would definitely take the 60K if it includes awesome public transport, unemployment money, affordable healthcare, a month of holidays, and having free time in the evenings for hobbies. Your priorities, of course, may be different.

tbrownaw 10y ago
If you end up choosing the US, and go to an at will state, keep in mind that your employer can fire you for wearing the wrong color of socks, even if they never told you which color is the right one (no, really). Getting new hires up to speed is expensive enough that they'd be pretty stupid to actually do this. Sure a few do, but it isn't common. Also, a couple minutes with google turns up this: https://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DataSetCode=AVD_DUR https://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DataSetCode=AVD_DUR . If it says what I think it says, getting a new job really is easier in the US (like it should be, because as any economist will tell you this is what has to happen when a bad hire is less of a disaster for the employer). I think it boils down to whether you want to take care of yourself, or if you let the state do it for you. In part, yes. But also, there are two approaches to reducing downtime. You can increase MTBF (make things more reliable, make it harder to get fired); or you can reduce MTTR (make things easier to fix, make it easier to get hired somewhere new). Europe goes with the first approach, the US goes with the second (which I very much prefer, because it doesn't gum things up). Separately, there's also making downtime less of a problem (failover systems, all the various other social safety net things). The US is generally known to kinda suck at this.
- whiskers08xmt 10y ago
  It's not all of Europe which has strict laws about firing people. For an example, the Danish concept of "Flexicurity"[0], where the state protects the worker against the financial trouble of getting fired, but not getting fired itself. Of course, this tend to lead to a rather high tax rate. [0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flexicurity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flexicurity
- nkrisc 10y ago
  >Getting new hires up to speed is expensive enough that they'd be pretty stupid to actually do this. Sure a few do, but it isn't common. I believe the point they were making is simply that they can. You're not protected (aside from the small handful of reason that actually are protected).
conanbatt 10y ago
> If you end up choosing the US, and go to an at will state, keep in mind that your employer can fire you for wearing the wrong color of socks, even if they never told you which color is the right one (no, really) I live in a country where you have to pay insurmountable amounts of money to fire employees. The salaries that us pays are about 8x. Gimme at will employment. > I would definitely take the 60K if it includes awesome public transport, unemployment money, affordable healthcare, a month of holidays, and having free time in the evenings for hobbies. I had plenty of free time in SF to do whatever i wanted when I worked there. Maybe i was lucky, but i did not find work-life balance to be particularly out of whack. Europe is more relaxed, but also less ambitious in terms of culture. That can be frustrating as well. > I would definitely take the 60K if it includes awesome public transport, unemployment money, affordable healthcare, a month of holidays, and having free time in the evenings for hobbies. You are paying for all those things, its not like they are free in europe. You can also pay for them in the US on software engineer salaries. Google has ample pto, facebook has parental rights, etc. You can always take unpaid time off, something easier to do in the US than in other countries.
dmm 10y ago
> your employer can fire you for wearing the wrong color of socks Adding restrictions on employer's ability to fire makes employers far less likely to hire. It enriches the already employed at the expense of the unemployed. If anything it makes more sense to have at-will employment in countries with strong social safety nets because unemployment is less disruptive there.

Oletros 10y ago

> Not to mention that people criticizing work-life balance of engineers in the us havent visited google offices. Office are part of work, not part of life

nommm-nommm 10y ago

Oh please, no. Please don't "improve" work life balance by making work more "fun" a la Google. I don't want to have "fun" at work, I want to have plenty of time off work to be with my family.

nkrisc 10y ago
I've not worked for Google, but their campus always struck me as a slick disguise for a poor work-life balance for single twenty-somethings.

cabernal 10y ago

I would say there's no comparison between what a developer makes in the US with the rest of the world.

lovich 10y ago

You're comparing median salary in Berlin with the high end in the US, and you are ignoring much of the complexities that were already mentioned such as the incredibley high cost of living in San Francisco where google and facebook pay those salaries. I'm in the Boston market and median salary for devs is around 80-90k when you include all skill levels, but every single dev I know has roommates or an hour+ commute into the city and higher healthcare costs than Germany. I'd believe that you would make more overall money in the US once you got to the higher end of the market, but it's not as simple as a calculation as you are making it out to be

emodendroket 10y ago
> every single dev I know has roommates or an hour+ commute into the city They should probably look for housing near a commuter rail then
- nkrisc 10y ago
  That's the "has roommates" part. That housing is going to be more expensive.
  - emodendroket 10y ago
    I live in the South Shore near the commuter rail. It's pretty affordable for someone making $80k.
    - lovich 10y ago
      Do you not have student loans? A few people in my social circle managed to get out of college without them through parents paying/scholarships and they have a much different calculus than the majority of us
      - emodendroket 10y ago
        My wife had some, but not a lot, and they're paid off now. So, yeah, you might be right.

cjCamel 10y ago

We have Google offices in Europe too you know.

conanbatt 10y ago
Also in Argentina.

watwut 10y ago

I can not have aging grandma nor children in google offices. I can not engage in personal hobbies that are not company sanctioned there. I dont have privacy there.

falcolas 10y ago

A software engineer in SF is also paying somewhere around 400% more for housing, and 100% more for everything else than a software engineer in Berlin. Quite an important note when comparing salaries. Higher costs, lower stability, and no safety net... I think that I would prefer that Berlin salary (and I'm a US resident).

emodendroket 10y ago
Most devs do not work in San Francisco and the salaries in cities with more reasonable costs of living are still pretty good.

nxtrafalgar 10y ago

Take living costs and so forth into account also. California probably isn't as great at the figures suggest. That said, speaking as a New Zealander: don't come here. There are no jobs, and if you find one, you will be underpaid. If you're looking for the weather and standard-of-living combination offered by the southern hemisphere, consider Melbourne or Sydney instead. Very few of my graduating class at the University of Auckland will end up remaining in the city, I suspect.

conanbatt 10y ago
Wow this is true? I just heard NZ was doing a state sponsored world-wide call for workers. Is it because people are leaving? Where are they leaving to?
- nxtrafalgar 10y ago
  I mean, there are jobs generally, but not really in tech. I was slightly exaggerating to say there are 'no' jobs, but in reality the NZ tech industry is not very mature. If people leave, normally they leave for Australia (because it's very easy to do so).

alkonaut 10y ago

> An experienced engineer at google or facebook make 200k with a sizable signup bonus. I think Silicon Valley megacorps are exceptional outliers. Obviously people can make silly money at Google, but so do athletes in the largest leagues. It's just not a useful comparison between continents with millions of employees. Exclude the top 10% and bottom 10% makes for a more reasonable comparison.

emodendroket 10y ago
They are, but the OP's point is fair even if we're looking at more "typical" US salaries for software engineering.

whiskers08xmt 10y ago

Cost of living is always important to consider. Looking at this site[0] for a ballpark figure, it would seem that someone living in San Francisco needs to be earning at least the double of someone in Berlin, to afford the same standard of living. San Francisco is still a very attractive place to work as a Software Engineer, but it's not as black and white, as the huge difference in pay might make it look. [0] https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=Germany&city1=Berlin&country2=United+States&city2=San+Francisco%2C+CA https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?cou...

conanbatt 10y ago
Software engineers most of the time get fed by the company and i distrust, at least with my spending habits, the cost of consumer prices like clothing or gadgets being cheaper in europe than in the us. Housing is the main difference: you can get a fairly large place in berlin, and you can have a family there. But SF is one city, there are pleny of other cities in the us more family friendly (if not any other city). I remember recently a map showing the purchasing power by salary per state, and the biggest purchasing power was nebraska.

cozicoolmail 10y ago

"Not to mentioned that people criticizing work-life balance of engineers in the us haven't visited google offices." Google and other tech companies in the U.S having nice offices doesn't mean the work life balance of Googlers is something to envy. Probably the opposite actually (three meals a day makes you stay there for dinner, nap rooms to let you stay even later). Not a great work life balance. Source: know Googlers, have been to Google offices

conanbatt 10y ago
As far as I saw, the ambiance was pretty relaxed, and there were plenty of benefits like gyms, music studios, hardware shops, etc to delve into hobbies. Im sure there are people working 12 hours a day, and im sure the vast majority barely work their 8.
mirimir 10y ago
When I was in grad school, I sometimes worked for days straight, with just naps.

bunburying 10y ago

As a former Googler who was involved in comparing pay across Google sites, Zurich was on par with Mountain View in gross pay (and ahead of New York), and after-tax pay was markedly higher in Zurich. While Berlin is a great city, it is very far from being a top-pay city in Europe.

conanbatt 10y ago
are you swiss? how easy is it for a foreigner to work in zurich?
- bunburying 10y ago
  I was in the London office (until a year ago) and led an engineering team spanning London, Zurich and New York. The majority of Google Zurich's engineers are not Swiss—elsewhere from Europe, from across Asia and many from the US.
theYipster 10y ago
After tax pay better be higher in Zurich... it's one of the most expensive cities to live in, especially as an ex-pat, in the world (and considerably more pricey than SF.)

redwood 10y ago

Cost of living there is low and with phenomenal transit and medical benefits

mpweiher 10y ago

When I was in the US working first at Apple and later at Livescribe, I was essentially breaking even on salary vs. cost of living. Moving back to Berlin, I went part time because it was sufficient.

conanbatt 10y ago
Break-even with an apple eng salary in the us? I cant believe that is true.
- ssalazar 10y ago
  Not sure about break-even, but Apple notoriously underpays relative to the rest of SV and the caliber of work/time expected.