4 ms·

> whereas in Europe it's normally free While we're correcting misconceptions, in the UK it's most definitely not free. But I believe it's still a lot cheaper

by J-dawg 10y ago

> whereas in Europe it's normally free While we're correcting misconceptions, in the UK it's most definitely not free. But I believe it's still a lot cheaper than the US. The universities are capped on the fees they can charge, and your student loan is regulated by the government (you only start paying back when you're earning over a threshold).

alkonaut 10y ago
When I look at the UK from Scandinavia, it seems to me that it's basically "50/50 continental Europe and the US". Wage inequality, parental leaves, employment security, higher education etc.are decidedly "non-european" in the UK. So yes when I talk about "Europe" in the context of "Europe vs US" I think the UK needs to be considered separately.
- vidarh 10y ago
  Yes, I'm Norwegian and moved to the UK, and it was a shock to see "US conditions" in Europe, and took a lot to get used to, even though the UK still have a lot of protections and welfare systems the US doesn't. (to the Americans: In many European countries "US conditions" is commonly used in political discourse as a way of scaring voters with the image of chaos and suffering)
  - timoth 10y ago
    Shades of grey though; not entirely black and white. In the UK->Norway direction, it's surprising to have to pay to visit a doctor or specialist, not to mention paying painful retail price for medicines, even for children. (Yes, I know there's an annual cap etc., but still seems a bit weird compared to free-at-the-point-of-use and a flat prescription charge in the UK.) No NHS dentistry either. (Yes, I know NHS dentist availability is not what it once was in the UK! And there are subsidies for necessary children's treatment in Norway depending on severity.)
- Accacin 10y ago
  Wage inequality and higher education I agree with, but we do quite well with parental leave don't we (the UK)?
  - dagw 10y ago
    but we do quite well with parental leave don't we Relative to the US, absolutely. Relative to Scandinavia, not really.
    - emodendroket 10y ago
      It'd be literally impossible to do worse than the US though.
    - Accacin 10y ago
      I mean, we're talking about Europe as whole. The UK has the highest maternity though paternity is much worse but still better than quite a few EU countries.
  - alkonaut 10y ago
    > but we do quite well with parental leave don't we (the UK) No. No you don't. :)
    - Accacin 10y ago
      Maternity leave in the UK is the highest in the EU. Paternity is much less generous, though still better than a lot of other countries.
      - alkonaut 10y ago
        The new (2015) UK rules are more generous, but still not the "highest in the EU" (c.f Sweden's 480 paid days). Swedes also don't need to take it at full rate meaning you can e.g make it a 2 year leave with lower pay. That might be possible in the UK too. Typical Nordic is 12 month maternity + 6month paternity I.e until the child is 18months.
scottishfiction 10y ago
While we're correcting misconceptions... it is most definitely 'free' in Scotland.
- alkonaut 10y ago
  Even though I'm swedish I did go to Scotish uni (Strathclyde!) for a while. It was probably paid for by magical EU funds though. I do remember registering and my peers talking about student loans but I thought they were like my student loans (which were for rent, food and books) and thought almost all tuitions were paid by govt. grants, not loans. I know at least a part of my friends had grants, not loans, paying their studies at least. What is the political situation now in the UK wrt. free higher education? It seems like one of the biggest social justice/social mobility issues a society can have. Is that not a top issue for Labour?
  - scottishfiction 10y ago
    I also went to Strathclyde :) In Scotland at least, student loans are only used for living expenses, similar to your experience. Tuition fees are paid by the Scottish Government, as education is a devolved power [1]. In England, tuition fees are paid by the student, usually through a student loan, and are capped at £9k/year. [Warning: political] I couldn't answer on Labour's priorities. They're becoming increasingly irrelevant north of the border, and increasingly impotent south of the border. 1. http://www.parliament.scot/visitandlearn/12506.aspx http://www.parliament.scot/visitandlearn/12506.aspx
- J-dawg 10y ago
  How could I forget! Thanks for pointing this out. Personally I'm surprised that there isn't a lot more anger from English taxpayers about this. It would be very interesting to see whether an independent Scotland could continue this policy.
  - scottishfiction 10y ago
    I hope they are angry; at their own leaders for failing to provide the same, and not based in some misguided theory on Scottish subsidies, which is a far more complex issue than many tabloids would have their readers believe. Stats here paint are more nuanced picture: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/comment/are-the-scots-really-sucking-up-a-massive-subsidy-9723797.html http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/comment/are-the-s...

by J-dawg 10y ago

alkonaut 10y ago

When I look at the UK from Scandinavia, it seems to me that it's basically "50/50 continental Europe and the US". Wage inequality, parental leaves, employment security, higher education etc.are decidedly "non-european" in the UK. So yes when I talk about "Europe" in the context of "Europe vs US" I think the UK needs to be considered separately.

vidarh 10y ago
Yes, I'm Norwegian and moved to the UK, and it was a shock to see "US conditions" in Europe, and took a lot to get used to, even though the UK still have a lot of protections and welfare systems the US doesn't. (to the Americans: In many European countries "US conditions" is commonly used in political discourse as a way of scaring voters with the image of chaos and suffering)
- timoth 10y ago
  Shades of grey though; not entirely black and white. In the UK->Norway direction, it's surprising to have to pay to visit a doctor or specialist, not to mention paying painful retail price for medicines, even for children. (Yes, I know there's an annual cap etc., but still seems a bit weird compared to free-at-the-point-of-use and a flat prescription charge in the UK.) No NHS dentistry either. (Yes, I know NHS dentist availability is not what it once was in the UK! And there are subsidies for necessary children's treatment in Norway depending on severity.)
Accacin 10y ago
Wage inequality and higher education I agree with, but we do quite well with parental leave don't we (the UK)?
- dagw 10y ago
  but we do quite well with parental leave don't we Relative to the US, absolutely. Relative to Scandinavia, not really.
  - emodendroket 10y ago
    It'd be literally impossible to do worse than the US though.
  - Accacin 10y ago
    I mean, we're talking about Europe as whole. The UK has the highest maternity though paternity is much worse but still better than quite a few EU countries.
- alkonaut 10y ago
  > but we do quite well with parental leave don't we (the UK) No. No you don't. :)
  - Accacin 10y ago
    Maternity leave in the UK is the highest in the EU. Paternity is much less generous, though still better than a lot of other countries.
    - alkonaut 10y ago
      The new (2015) UK rules are more generous, but still not the "highest in the EU" (c.f Sweden's 480 paid days). Swedes also don't need to take it at full rate meaning you can e.g make it a 2 year leave with lower pay. That might be possible in the UK too. Typical Nordic is 12 month maternity + 6month paternity I.e until the child is 18months.

scottishfiction 10y ago

While we're correcting misconceptions... it is most definitely 'free' in Scotland.

alkonaut 10y ago
Even though I'm swedish I did go to Scotish uni (Strathclyde!) for a while. It was probably paid for by magical EU funds though. I do remember registering and my peers talking about student loans but I thought they were like my student loans (which were for rent, food and books) and thought almost all tuitions were paid by govt. grants, not loans. I know at least a part of my friends had grants, not loans, paying their studies at least. What is the political situation now in the UK wrt. free higher education? It seems like one of the biggest social justice/social mobility issues a society can have. Is that not a top issue for Labour?
- scottishfiction 10y ago
  I also went to Strathclyde :) In Scotland at least, student loans are only used for living expenses, similar to your experience. Tuition fees are paid by the Scottish Government, as education is a devolved power [1]. In England, tuition fees are paid by the student, usually through a student loan, and are capped at £9k/year. [Warning: political] I couldn't answer on Labour's priorities. They're becoming increasingly irrelevant north of the border, and increasingly impotent south of the border. 1. http://www.parliament.scot/visitandlearn/12506.aspx http://www.parliament.scot/visitandlearn/12506.aspx
J-dawg 10y ago
How could I forget! Thanks for pointing this out. Personally I'm surprised that there isn't a lot more anger from English taxpayers about this. It would be very interesting to see whether an independent Scotland could continue this policy.
- scottishfiction 10y ago
  I hope they are angry; at their own leaders for failing to provide the same, and not based in some misguided theory on Scottish subsidies, which is a far more complex issue than many tabloids would have their readers believe. Stats here paint are more nuanced picture: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/comment/are-the-scots-really-sucking-up-a-massive-subsidy-9723797.html http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/comment/are-the-s...