5 ms·

Classy newyorker is good at criticising, but never good at offering alternative. And the implied solution(opposite of being too much self-reliant) is always the

Classy newyorker is good at criticising, but never good at offering alternative. And the implied solution(opposite of being too much self-reliant) is always the cliche rosy picture of bigger government and welfare society.

rimliu 10y ago
I think I saw a report somewhere stating thad Danes are most happy to pay taxes—because they are happy what they gain in return. Also, there was a report recently, that happiest people are in Norway. Maybe it is not fair to call all socially responsible arrangements "welfare society"?
- refurb 10y ago
  Or maybe they don't know any different? How many people have actually had the opportunity to live a decade or more of their adult lives in different countries? A very small minority. Canadians love their single payer healthcare. They have no problem waiting a year or more for surgery. They don't think paying a 15% VAT is a burden. They don't know any different. Americans would shit themselves if they had to deal with that.
  - Kristine1975 10y ago
    >Canadians have no problem waiting a year or more for surgery. Citation needed.
    - refurb 10y ago
      Citation that Canadians are OK with long waiting times? Or that long waiting times exist? This woman was told she'd need to wait 2+ years. Bennett was referred for surgery on her right hip in November of 2013 and said she’s been told she won’t get in until early in 2016. She said her joint has deteriorated so much she is unable to work or even function without strong narcotic painkillers. [1]http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/patients-lives-ruined-as-hip-surgery-waits-grow-1.2976196 http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/patients-live...
  - MandieD 10y ago
    I've done both: grew up, was educated and started my career in the US, then moved to Germany. Yes, I pay some spectacular taxes, and on a somewhat lower salary than I would probably have in the US, and as a result, live in a smaller house and drive a cheaper car. But the six weeks of annual vacation soften the blow, and being able to leave my nice bike lightly locked in front of my house and in front of a pub in downtown Nuremberg on a Saturday night makes up the rest of the difference. As for the medical, my anecdata is that I've never waited more than two hours in an emergency room (each time, non-life threatening, just weekend) and that care was far less expensive than in the US, even as a private payer. One example while skiing in Austria: I fell and injured my thumb, ski patrol insisted I go to the hospital. I paid 20 EUR to take a cab to the next town. The emergency room looked at my passport and took my word on my address in Germany. A few x-rays later (no break), I had a packet of pain pills for the next three days. A few weeks later, the bill arrived: 125 EUR.
  - gerbilly 10y ago
    >Canadians love their single payer healthcare. Generally, yes we do. And here's a single datapoint: I paid lower taxes in Ontario than in CT, on the exact same salary.[1]
    - refurb 10y ago
      Income taxes? Or total taxes? Ontario has a 13% VAT tax, higher gas and alcohol taxes. You can't deduct mortgage interest payments. A decade or more ago I was paying less than 10% tax in Michigan on a $60K salary. I ran the numbers for Canada and it would have been closer to 20%.
  - hocuspocus 10y ago
    > Americans would shit themselves if they had to deal with that. Are Americans some kind of special subspecies where the bottom 80% of earners inherently enjoys being screwed?
    - refurb 10y ago
      No, my point is that plenty of American have very high quality healthcare. Sure they pay more, but they also get more. Going from the system today to "no you can't go to that hospital" or "you'll need to wait 6 months for surgery" or "no we won't pay for the latest cancer drug" would piss a lot of people off.
danieldk 10y ago
is always the cliche rosy picture of bigger government and welfare society. ...which works very well in Western Europe, where you don't have to worry losing everything when you get ill, lose your job, etc. I am in favor of a fair bit of (regulated) capitalism. But in the US people are taught that capitalism is good and socialism is bad [1], and the industry at large exploits it to get extremely cheap labor. There is a life outside work. [1] How universal healthcare can be bad is beyond me. The US spends more on healthcare per capita than Western European countries and has worse outcomes. See e.g.: https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/feb/09/which-country-has-worlds-best-healthcare-system-this-is-the-nhs https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/feb/09/which-countr...
- saiya-jin 10y ago
  > ...which works very well in Western Europe, where you don't have to worry losing everything when you get ill, lose your job, etc. but it doesn't. plenty of people here are fed up with what EU became (westernized soviet union with idiotic central panning out of touch with reality out there in member states on the inside, super-weak 'power' on the outside). Swiss were clever (or lucky) enough to vote to NOT join EU and they thrive beyond what is anywhere in EU - smallish government, relatively little taxation, more freedom than rest of europe will ever experience. They have very generous social net for unemployment too.

rimliu 10y ago

I think I saw a report somewhere stating thad Danes are most happy to pay taxes—because they are happy what they gain in return. Also, there was a report recently, that happiest people are in Norway. Maybe it is not fair to call all socially responsible arrangements "welfare society"?

refurb 10y ago
Or maybe they don't know any different? How many people have actually had the opportunity to live a decade or more of their adult lives in different countries? A very small minority. Canadians love their single payer healthcare. They have no problem waiting a year or more for surgery. They don't think paying a 15% VAT is a burden. They don't know any different. Americans would shit themselves if they had to deal with that.
- Kristine1975 10y ago
  >Canadians have no problem waiting a year or more for surgery. Citation needed.
  - refurb 10y ago
    Citation that Canadians are OK with long waiting times? Or that long waiting times exist? This woman was told she'd need to wait 2+ years. Bennett was referred for surgery on her right hip in November of 2013 and said she’s been told she won’t get in until early in 2016. She said her joint has deteriorated so much she is unable to work or even function without strong narcotic painkillers. [1]http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/patients-lives-ruined-as-hip-surgery-waits-grow-1.2976196 http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/patients-live...
- MandieD 10y ago
  I've done both: grew up, was educated and started my career in the US, then moved to Germany. Yes, I pay some spectacular taxes, and on a somewhat lower salary than I would probably have in the US, and as a result, live in a smaller house and drive a cheaper car. But the six weeks of annual vacation soften the blow, and being able to leave my nice bike lightly locked in front of my house and in front of a pub in downtown Nuremberg on a Saturday night makes up the rest of the difference. As for the medical, my anecdata is that I've never waited more than two hours in an emergency room (each time, non-life threatening, just weekend) and that care was far less expensive than in the US, even as a private payer. One example while skiing in Austria: I fell and injured my thumb, ski patrol insisted I go to the hospital. I paid 20 EUR to take a cab to the next town. The emergency room looked at my passport and took my word on my address in Germany. A few x-rays later (no break), I had a packet of pain pills for the next three days. A few weeks later, the bill arrived: 125 EUR.
- gerbilly 10y ago
  >Canadians love their single payer healthcare. Generally, yes we do. And here's a single datapoint: I paid lower taxes in Ontario than in CT, on the exact same salary.[1]
  - refurb 10y ago
    Income taxes? Or total taxes? Ontario has a 13% VAT tax, higher gas and alcohol taxes. You can't deduct mortgage interest payments. A decade or more ago I was paying less than 10% tax in Michigan on a $60K salary. I ran the numbers for Canada and it would have been closer to 20%.
- hocuspocus 10y ago
  > Americans would shit themselves if they had to deal with that. Are Americans some kind of special subspecies where the bottom 80% of earners inherently enjoys being screwed?
  - refurb 10y ago
    No, my point is that plenty of American have very high quality healthcare. Sure they pay more, but they also get more. Going from the system today to "no you can't go to that hospital" or "you'll need to wait 6 months for surgery" or "no we won't pay for the latest cancer drug" would piss a lot of people off.

danieldk 10y ago

is always the cliche rosy picture of bigger government and welfare society. ...which works very well in Western Europe, where you don't have to worry losing everything when you get ill, lose your job, etc. I am in favor of a fair bit of (regulated) capitalism. But in the US people are taught that capitalism is good and socialism is bad [1], and the industry at large exploits it to get extremely cheap labor. There is a life outside work. [1] How universal healthcare can be bad is beyond me. The US spends more on healthcare per capita than Western European countries and has worse outcomes. See e.g.: https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/feb/09/which-country-has-worlds-best-healthcare-system-this-is-the-nhs https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/feb/09/which-countr...

saiya-jin 10y ago
> ...which works very well in Western Europe, where you don't have to worry losing everything when you get ill, lose your job, etc. but it doesn't. plenty of people here are fed up with what EU became (westernized soviet union with idiotic central panning out of touch with reality out there in member states on the inside, super-weak 'power' on the outside). Swiss were clever (or lucky) enough to vote to NOT join EU and they thrive beyond what is anywhere in EU - smallish government, relatively little taxation, more freedom than rest of europe will ever experience. They have very generous social net for unemployment too.