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I work in the coffee industry and saw Sudden pop up last year so was interested in the technique and hacked it out. Freeze dried coffee is already what Folgers
by alaskamiller 10y ago
I work in the coffee industry and saw Sudden pop up last year so was interested in the technique and hacked it out.
Freeze dried coffee is already what Folgers does and sell you. This is the more artisanal version of that since the big brands have big factories that can pump out plenty of instant coffee grounds.
So this is a ramped up volume play on existing techniques perfected by the doomsday preppers. Youtube search for freeze dried coffee and you'll plenty of people explaining how to do it.
The freeze drying machines sell for $600 to $1000 from a variety of vendors. I think I figured out which one Sudden is using, it's the low end consumer version from Salt Lake City. They just have 20 of these in a SF warehouse somewhere.
From there it's just a method of scaling expensive capital costs, labor intensive processes, and maximizing the calculation of yield, and marketing enough to convince people that $2.50 for freeze dried coffee in a tube is a good deal.
That only works when relative to the crazy world of craft coffee people charging $5 or $7 for a pour over with the Keurig pods at $1.50 anchoring the bottom and buying a big can of coffee to make your own at $1 a carafe.
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- zloof 10y agoHappy to answer whatever questions we can disclose! Thanks for starting the thread. It's somewhere in the middle to be honest. We did not invent freeze dried coffee - it's been around for over a century. However, it is quite difficult to make it work at-scale in a way that's profitable/sustainable, and that still tastes good. I have a pretty extensive background in operations, manufacturing, & tech and I had to pull out every trick in the book to get this to work at our current scale & price. It was a lot of work. It is also inherently more expensive to sell. All of the same things that make regular instant coffee taste bad also make it super cheap. We are trying to make it as affordable as possible, but at the end of the day the higher quality does require a more expensive process.
- Balgair 10y agoDefine 'tastes good/bad'
- wcarron 10y agoanything Keurig. It's watery gruel that smells awful and lacks flavor.
- bigtunacan 10y agoKeurig is several orders of magnitude better than instant and can be bought for as low as 50 cents a cup. At Sudden's 8 cups for $19 it is CHEAPER for me to buy a quality pour over at the local cafe where they charge $2.25 a cup. Also this appears to be targeting "coffee snobs"; most of that crowd isn't interested in instant coffee.
- freese 10y agoWe started by targeting "coffee snobs" but we're now realizing that they indeed are not the best segment for us. We're shifting our focus toward more everyday coffee drinkers who are still interested in great coffee. Edit: Definitely makes sense for you to go to your corner coffee shop. However, Sudden offers you an option to drink kick-ass coffee when you don't have access to any other option
- jamiek88 10y agoYeah, for me this would be 'travel coffee'. We hate to fly internally in the US so we drive long distances, ofter over night. Right now I have a french press etc. for that but if I could find an instant coffee that was like 90% as good as pour over that would make me happy. Is there a non-subscription / trial offer?
- freese 10y agoEmail me and I make get you a travel box
- truthexposer 10y agoWho is your target? If people want good tasting coffee, like a connoisseur, one would like the option of selecting the type of bean, where it is sourced from, how it's roasted, how it's ground, how it's brewed etc. People even vehemently oppose and stand by brewing methods, which to an ordinary person who doesn't care about coffee, wouldn't care about. And if someone is buying instant coffee anyways, I doubt they care about the taste, or have preferred methods of milk/cream and sugar that would make any drown out any nuanced/bad flavor of ANY coffee.
- pkulak 10y agoI wouldn't mind good instant for traveling. I used to use the Starbucks stuff, but they seem to have abandoned it. I've also taken my grinder and a bag of beans with me, which is... less than ideal.
- freese 10y agoYeah... I just can't be bothered by carrying those around anymore.
- freese 10y agoEven though I own pretty much every coffee brewing device I use Sudden at home every morning. It's just so much easier. It's never going to be better than a really well brewed coffee but it's just sooo easy and still really solid.
- wasd 10y agoI don't know how common it is but I bring an aeropress and hand grinder whenever I travel. It's a ton of work and sucks. I drink pour over everyday (dial in temp, grind, ratio, and draw time for every new coffee), make iced coffee during summer, and subscribe to a coffee service. In theory, this would work better. I have no idea if the addressable market is big enough but I certainly wouldn't mind trying it.
- jazzabeanie 10y agoI actually like to process of grinding and pressing. Bag space is the only downside, and the reason I don't take my aeropress and grinder with me when I travel.
- pbreit 10y agoHow long do opened and unopened tubes last?
- freese 10y agoCurrently we promise 4-6 month shelf life. We recently started to flush the tubes with nitrogen. As long as you keep the coffee in dark, cool and dry place it will last probably longer - we're still not sure since the oldest samples haven't gone bad yet! Edit: when you open a tube it will age much faster.
- BrailleHunting 10y agoIs Sudden a California CFO? Are there food safety and facility standards, licensure, insurance and documentation requirements to setting up a food processing operation? http://www.cdph.ca.gov/programs/Documents/fdbCFOfaqs.pdf http://www.cdph.ca.gov/programs/Documents/fdbCFOfaqs.pdf
- zloof 10y agoWe've pushed over that limit. The regulations really vary depending on what type of food, how big your operation is, etc. We brought in an expert to verify that everything we are doing is up to code. We are pretty rigorous about quality control, cleanliness, and organization behind the scenes. The things that you need to do as a business to be efficient (bring down cost) and maintain high quality are also the same things that lead to a clean and safe working environment - so it all lines up. That's my area of expertise.
- iamacynic 10y agonone of the things you just mentioned are easy or cheap, so i feel like minimizing the "what they're doing" part is a bit strange, or maybe that's just how i read your text. most businesses when analyzed on paper like this are very simple, or are re-packaging existing ideas. that's not something i would put against a business idea. having said that, the primary reason i pound cold brew instead of making 2 or 3 aeropresses every morning is because i don't like boiling water, and grinding, and waiting, and cleaning up. some people find it all very mindful and relaxing and zen and whatever, but for me it's just a pain in the ass, so for me personally $2.50 for something i could just pay $1 (on average) in a big concentrated cold brew growler is perhaps a weird price point.
- freese 10y agoYup. In theory making good instant coffee is a pretty simple idea but I can tell you that if I knew what I know about the process I'm not sure I'd start this business all over again.
- jacquesm 10y ago> I can tell you that if I knew what I know about the process I'm not sure I'd start this business all over again. And yet, those often make the best businesses. Businesses that do not require extensive domain knowledge are easy to copy, businesses that have no 'moat' (barrier to entry) tend to be overrun by competition initiating a very early race to the bottom in price where the only thing that matters is to hit the largest possible scale as soon as you can. Having a moat like this gives you breathing room, so cherish it. Hard is good in startups.
- freese 10y agoNow that you put it that way I definitely agree with you.
- BrailleHunting 10y agoHard is good when something can be patented, kept secret, heavily regulated or otherwise defended. Mr. Wonderful and Mr. Coffee will knock this off in μseconds if there's any traction.
- uptownfunk 10y agoDownvote me to hell, but I think people drink too much coffee (and caffeinated drinks), it's just not necessary and is an addictive substance. I think it's a toxic substance honestly, tires the adrenals and heart out. Anyone else on here who abstains from caffeine?
- freese 10y agoI think you're making a great point - coffee is the legal drug at the moment. Personally, I drink coffee for the flavor, not for the caffeine. I'm a big fan of high-quality decaf coffee and it's something we're looking to do with Sudden.
- aedron 10y agoI think you would have a shot at a solid niche with the decaf angle. Think about this: At practically every workplace you can get real coffee, which will probably always beat freeze-dried stuff. But if you want decaf you are SOL. I am currently forced to drink Nestlé Gold Decaf and it is just barely tolerable. I don't know how your product compares but personally I would spring for anything better in a heartbeat, price be damned.
- freese 10y agoThis is really great to hear. We've had a good amount of demand for decaf option and are working on it. Email me and I'll keep you in the loop
- chrismartin 10y ago> Personally, I drink coffee for the flavor, not for the caffeine. I'm a big fan of high-quality decaf coffee > On the flight back to Helsinki I was desperate for caffeine and ordered a coffee Denial is a common sign of addiction :)
- ribs 10y agoI'd dig good instant decaf. I don't want any caffeine but coffee can be delicious. Give me a shot at coffee snobbery!
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- aj7 10y agoI set the limit at 0.50 per Keurig pod and my wife has decreed that we will brew pots of coffee in our new digs.
- kriro 10y agoYou seem like you know what you're talking about. I know pretty much nothing about freeze drying. 600$ to 1k$ actually seems reasonable enough for my personal production. Would I need anything else? My mental model of the process is...grind (I think it needs a different grind than pourover), put into the magic freezer machine, wait and have instant coffee to take to work :P What's yield/power consumption etc. (for such a lower end consumer version). Anything else I should be aware of?
- freese 10y agoInstant coffee is liquid, brewed coffee that then gets dehydrated. 1) grind the coffee 2) brew it however you like 3) cool the coffee from 90C --> cold 4) freeze the coffee 5) freeze dry for 24-48 hours Fundamentally this will work but you're likely to run into a few problems. Your yield is going to be pretty low - one batch will likely get you ≈10-15 cups. Secondly, that coffee is really hygroscopic, meaning that it's so dry that it will absorb any moisture from the air. Unless you keep it in vacuum pouches it'll turn into a rock within days.
- _pmf_ 10y ago> This is the more artisanal version of that So, it's in a paper wrapper bag with vintage font that displays a feel-good message? (Note: I'm susceptible to these kinds of marketing gags, but feel dirty when I buy something that turns out to be mediocre stuff.)
- freese 10y agoWe're decidedly anti-artisanal coffee. Our mission is to take really good coffee and make it accessible and approachable to the mainstream coffee drinkers. My 83-year-old grandmother's friends in Finland are subscribers because they love how easy it is.