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For one, every Linux distribution comes with either Firefox or Chromium preinstalled. Is that monopolistic behaviour? Should EU require Linux developer to provi

by mamon 10y ago

For one, every Linux distribution comes with either Firefox or Chromium preinstalled. Is that monopolistic behaviour? Should EU require Linux developer to provide "Choose your web browser" wizard popping up on every new Linux install, similar way it is on Windows?

dragonwriter 10y ago
Microsoft's behavior was illegal not because of bundling alone, but because of bundling a product (IE) in a different market with a product which was a monopoly (Windows) in what was held to be (based on additional Al evidence beyond mere bundling) an attempt to leverage a monopoly in one market to monopolize a different market. So, no, it's not like any Linux distribution bundling a third-party browser like Firefox or Chromium, since none of those distributions have a monopoly to leverage to start with.
- sah2ed 10y ago
  Honest question: if Microsoft didn't bundle IE and the user hadn't received a copy of those ubiquitous AOL CD-ROMs which came in the mail/magazines (and sometimes carried the Netscape Navigator installer), how is the user expected to consume content on the web without a web browser? Surely, you'll at least need a decent web browser to get online to download a different browser of your choice, no?
  - kalleboo 10y ago
    Every ISP I used in the 90's sent a floppy or CD-ROM with a setup guide, web browser and some other shareware internet tools (FTP clients, Stuffit Expander on the Mac, etc)
  - pjc50 10y ago
    There was a time when people bought software in boxes.
  - mohaine 10y ago
    There is no need for a browser to download something from the internet. You only need the browser to browse the internet. (hence the name) A simple UI with a list of options was all that was needed.
    - spinlock 10y ago
      The web is not the internet
  - dragonwriter 10y ago
    > if Microsoft didn't bundle IE and the user hadn't received a copy of those ubiquitous AOL CD-ROMs which came in the mail/magazines (and sometimes carried the Netscape Navigator installer), how is the user expected to consume content on the web without a web browser? Go to store, by a CD with browser, install. The age when boxed software was a major thing extended past the point when IE started bundling IE. Of course, with a TCP/IP stack you can get software from the internet a lot of ways without a web browser, too. FTP was a thing, after all.
    - kamjam 10y ago
      As a user who has just bought their first computer, would you a) like to go to the shop and spend money to buy more software b) try to figure out this thing called FTP, maybe going to the library to read up on it even though you have never heard of it so don't know what you are looking for c) just use this thing called "Internet Explorer" that sounds like what you want to do, is free and already installed on the computer you just turned on for the first time?
      - spinlock 10y ago
        You're talking about an era when Gopher was still the dominant protocol on the internet.
      - spinlock 10y ago
        You're talking about an era when Gopher was still the dominant protocol on the internet.
      - kbenson 10y ago
        Keep in mind, many people with a computer might not have the internet at all during this period. Purchasing internet service usually came with software to use it.
      - dragonwriter 10y ago
        Before, and for several years after, Microsoft started bundling IE, many, perhaps most, ISPs (dialup and what passed for "broadband" at the time) typically delivered software CDs that you were expected to install with their own software (often including their preferred web browser, preconfigured with their preferred start page and other settings.) If you just bought your first computer at that time, you weren't likely to have internet service to connect it to until you bought that separately, and when you did, you would have software, too.
  - knicholes 10y ago
    When I was a kid (before the publicly-used version of the Internet that we know and love today) and wanted to download software, I'd log into a BBS for my download.
    - sah2ed 10y ago
      Thanks for adding your perspective to the discussion though I'd argue that your experience might not have been representative of the larger population.
Veedrac 10y ago
> every Linux distribution comes with either Firefox or Chromium preinstalled False. See, for instance, Arch.
smhenderson 10y ago
Not every Linux distribution "comes with" Firefox or Chromium. They may be an option on the install disk and may even be part of the default install but they do not have to be installed and there are other choices (e.g. I typically install SeaMonkey because I like the mail client it comes with). In fact I can decide to install Linux on a PC and not install a browser at all. Last I checked it's still hard/impossible to remove IE/Edge from Windows. [1] [1] Although admittedly the last real work I did in Windows was 7, so please correct me if the situation has changed.
- gurkendoktor 10y ago
  You can remove IE in Windows 7: http://lifehacker.com/5164286/windows-7-lets-you-finally-uninstall-internet-explorer-kinda http://lifehacker.com/5164286/windows-7-lets-you-finally-uni... I'm pretty sure I've seen the dialog in Windows 10 as well, but not for Edge, which I find even worse than IE.
  - nkristoffersen 10y ago
    If you were a web developer you'd be happy to know Edge is so much better at complying with web standards than IE ever was. Would love to know what people miss about IE. https://developer.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-edge/platform/status/ https://developer.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-edge/platfor...
__jal 10y ago
If you're not just repeating an ancient talking point and actually don't understand this, it would be well worth spending some time on Wikipedia coming up to speed on the goals of antitrust enforcement. The short version is that the actions of a non-monopolist are looked at very differently than the actions of a monopolist. Additionally, you're dead wrong about "every Linux distribution", and even if you weren't, the fact that there are many of them would moot an antitrust argument.

by mamon 10y ago

dragonwriter 10y ago

Microsoft's behavior was illegal not because of bundling alone, but because of bundling a product (IE) in a different market with a product which was a monopoly (Windows) in what was held to be (based on additional Al evidence beyond mere bundling) an attempt to leverage a monopoly in one market to monopolize a different market. So, no, it's not like any Linux distribution bundling a third-party browser like Firefox or Chromium, since none of those distributions have a monopoly to leverage to start with.

sah2ed 10y ago
Honest question: if Microsoft didn't bundle IE and the user hadn't received a copy of those ubiquitous AOL CD-ROMs which came in the mail/magazines (and sometimes carried the Netscape Navigator installer), how is the user expected to consume content on the web without a web browser? Surely, you'll at least need a decent web browser to get online to download a different browser of your choice, no?
- kalleboo 10y ago
  Every ISP I used in the 90's sent a floppy or CD-ROM with a setup guide, web browser and some other shareware internet tools (FTP clients, Stuffit Expander on the Mac, etc)
- pjc50 10y ago
  There was a time when people bought software in boxes.
- mohaine 10y ago
  There is no need for a browser to download something from the internet. You only need the browser to browse the internet. (hence the name) A simple UI with a list of options was all that was needed.
  - spinlock 10y ago
    The web is not the internet
- dragonwriter 10y ago
  > if Microsoft didn't bundle IE and the user hadn't received a copy of those ubiquitous AOL CD-ROMs which came in the mail/magazines (and sometimes carried the Netscape Navigator installer), how is the user expected to consume content on the web without a web browser? Go to store, by a CD with browser, install. The age when boxed software was a major thing extended past the point when IE started bundling IE. Of course, with a TCP/IP stack you can get software from the internet a lot of ways without a web browser, too. FTP was a thing, after all.
  - kamjam 10y ago
    As a user who has just bought their first computer, would you a) like to go to the shop and spend money to buy more software b) try to figure out this thing called FTP, maybe going to the library to read up on it even though you have never heard of it so don't know what you are looking for c) just use this thing called "Internet Explorer" that sounds like what you want to do, is free and already installed on the computer you just turned on for the first time?
    - spinlock 10y ago
      You're talking about an era when Gopher was still the dominant protocol on the internet.
    - spinlock 10y ago
      You're talking about an era when Gopher was still the dominant protocol on the internet.
    - kbenson 10y ago
      Keep in mind, many people with a computer might not have the internet at all during this period. Purchasing internet service usually came with software to use it.
    - dragonwriter 10y ago
      Before, and for several years after, Microsoft started bundling IE, many, perhaps most, ISPs (dialup and what passed for "broadband" at the time) typically delivered software CDs that you were expected to install with their own software (often including their preferred web browser, preconfigured with their preferred start page and other settings.) If you just bought your first computer at that time, you weren't likely to have internet service to connect it to until you bought that separately, and when you did, you would have software, too.
- knicholes 10y ago
  When I was a kid (before the publicly-used version of the Internet that we know and love today) and wanted to download software, I'd log into a BBS for my download.
  - sah2ed 10y ago
    Thanks for adding your perspective to the discussion though I'd argue that your experience might not have been representative of the larger population.

Veedrac 10y ago

> every Linux distribution comes with either Firefox or Chromium preinstalled False. See, for instance, Arch.

smhenderson 10y ago

Not every Linux distribution "comes with" Firefox or Chromium. They may be an option on the install disk and may even be part of the default install but they do not have to be installed and there are other choices (e.g. I typically install SeaMonkey because I like the mail client it comes with). In fact I can decide to install Linux on a PC and not install a browser at all. Last I checked it's still hard/impossible to remove IE/Edge from Windows. [1] [1] Although admittedly the last real work I did in Windows was 7, so please correct me if the situation has changed.

gurkendoktor 10y ago
You can remove IE in Windows 7: http://lifehacker.com/5164286/windows-7-lets-you-finally-uninstall-internet-explorer-kinda http://lifehacker.com/5164286/windows-7-lets-you-finally-uni... I'm pretty sure I've seen the dialog in Windows 10 as well, but not for Edge, which I find even worse than IE.
- nkristoffersen 10y ago
  If you were a web developer you'd be happy to know Edge is so much better at complying with web standards than IE ever was. Would love to know what people miss about IE. https://developer.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-edge/platform/status/ https://developer.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-edge/platfor...

__jal 10y ago

If you're not just repeating an ancient talking point and actually don't understand this, it would be well worth spending some time on Wikipedia coming up to speed on the goals of antitrust enforcement. The short version is that the actions of a non-monopolist are looked at very differently than the actions of a monopolist. Additionally, you're dead wrong about "every Linux distribution", and even if you weren't, the fact that there are many of them would moot an antitrust argument.