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Well, within your few sentences lies the method through which AA is able to remain a meme (in the original Dawkins sense). The core tenant is that alcoholism is
by tumult 16y ago
Well, within your few sentences lies the method through which AA is able to remain a meme (in the original Dawkins sense). The core tenant is that alcoholism is a permanent 'spiritual' disease, that cannot be cured, and can only be treated through perpetual use of the 12-step program for the rest of their lives.
None of this, in reality, is based on science or facts. It is something that the original progenitors made up.
Because most people in their normal lives will not develop an addiction firsthand, and because most people are honest and basically believe what they are told (expecting other people to tell them the truth), this continues to propagate.
One way to tell if something propagates mostly as a meme rather than by functional merit is to cross cultural boundaries and look for it elsewhere. If it were something that had merit, there is a better chance for it to have grown within other cultures independently. AA's own self-published census shows that it is overwhelmingly an American and Canadian phenomenon, with some small sprinkling in the UK. It basically exists nowhere else in the world, except for expatriates from the US.
There is also a correlation between alcohol addiction and AA penetration. Places with more problems with alcohol addiction have more AA meetings. At first this seems to make sense -- more alcoholics, more AA members and meetings to help them. But if you go to places where AA does not exist at all, you'll find the same numbers you'd expect from America if there was no correlation with AA. In other words, places without AA have the same numbers you would get in America if you took the AA slider widget and turned it back down to 0.
My own conclusion is that AA and alcoholism is mostly a cultural artifact, not a physical (or 'spiritual') disease manifesting itself in people's bodies. I encourage you to dig up numbers (which AA openly provides from their own surveys, and are not flattering to themselves) and draw your own conclusions.
- jamesbritt 16y ago" The core tenant is that alcoholism is a permanent 'spiritual' disease" Well, what you hear may vary from one AA group to the next, but I don't think the core point is that it is spiritual, only that it is permanent. (Assorted official books from AA may say otherwise, but actual AA groups very in the application of the key principles.) The idea is that some people keep chasing the idea that they can drink just a little then stop, yet fail again and again. If you can get them to just give up on that idea they'll be better off. "AA's own self-published census shows that it is overwhelmingly an American and Canadian phenomenon, with some small sprinkling in the UK. It basically exists nowhere else in the world, except for expatriates from the US." Do you have a link for this? These sites suggests otherwise: http://www.aa.org/lang/en/aa_international.cfm?origpage=31 http://www.aa.org/lang/en/aa_international.cfm?origpage=31 http://markybaby.com/legacy/book/links_index.php http://markybaby.com/legacy/book/links_index.php
- tumult 16y agoDo you have a link for this? These sites suggests otherwise Yes I do. Outside of U.S./Canada 704,266 Members Total Reported 2,103,033 Members In other words, 33% of all AA membership is not within North America. This is from their own material, the 2007 survey. http://www.aa.org/en_pdfs/m-24_aafactfile.pdf http://www.aa.org/en_pdfs/m-24_aafactfile.pdf 33%? That's still a lot, right? Occurrence of AA membership in North America: 1 in 265 http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=(population+of+united+states+%2B+population+of+canada)+/+1300000 http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=(population+of+united+s... Occurrence of AA membership the world, excluding North America: 1 in 9207 http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=(population+of+world+-+(population+of+united+states+%2B+population+of+canada))+/+700000 http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=(population+of+world+-+... It makes sense that their international presence is played up heavily on their sites and other material, so as to make it seem as if they are expounding some universal truth, rather than a localized phenomenon. The idea is that some people keep chasing the idea that they can drink just a little then stop, yet fail again and again. If you can get them to just give up on that idea they'll be better off. Yes, that is one of AA's core ideas, and not backed up by scientific research or studies. Just because a lot of people (where you live) say it very loudly and frequently does not make it true. This is exactly what I just talked about in my previous post -- people accept these statements as if they are inherently true, without examining them critically.
- brazzy 16y agoCouldn't the AA focus on permanence be simply based on the observation that alcoholism has a high rate of relapse, even years after an apparent cure, and the theory that constant vigilance is the best method to prevent this?
- ekanes 16y ago>> The core tenant is that alcoholism is a permanent 'spiritual' disease I'm unfamiliar with the program enough that I can't refute the word "spiritual", though another viewpoint might be that alcoholism might rewire your brain permanently, which is conceivable imho.