5 ms·

The myth of the pristine Amazon rainforest

83 points by upen 10y ago

namenotrequired 10y ago
Recommended reading: 1491 by Charles C. Mann. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1491:_New_Revelations_of_the_Americas_Before_Columbus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1491:_New_Revelations_of_the_A...
- notJim 10y ago
  Yes, plus one to this. I read it and found it be thought-provoking, and simultaneously incredibly sad and incredibly hopeful. It also really upended various preconceived notions, I, and I think a lot of people had about these civilizations, which has turned me into someone who rants about pre-Columbian civilizations at parties :).
RangerScience 10y ago
Clearly someone (with deep pockets) needs to do a forest-as-infrastructure "startup". I'm not kidding. If there are people who can make something like asteroid mining (Planetary Resources), this can totally be a thing... ...that's already sort of a thing (forestry), when you consider that's how tree farms work - only those are "optimized" for wood production. Call it... "massively hetero-culture volumetric emergent agriculture", or something.
- chongli 10y ago
  What I'd really like to see is autonomous drones that can harvest small berries, seeds, peas, leaves and root vegetables. You could develop permaculture gardens with extremely high yields and virtually no labour. The drones could even work to cultivate predatory insects such as ladybugs and wasps to keep pests under control.
  - rectangletangle 10y ago
    That would be cool as hell. There's something oddly fascinating about autonomous drones flying around the wilderness harvesting/gathering resources, like some strange futuristic caricature of nature.
    - wavefunction 10y ago
      I think the wilderness should be primarily left completely alone with light-impact human leisure allowed in certain contexts. I prefer the US public land approach where different lands are graded for different public uses, and certain areas are off-limits/prohibited to the general public because of practical concerns. There is a 4300m mountain right by my hometown and while one can hike over much of the mountain and the range that surrounds it, certain areas are off-limits during seasons of the year because the mountain sheep drop and raise their lambs there. Why not use your drones to turn your cities into gardens?
      - RangerScience 10y ago
        The article is almost about how the rainforests - long considered natural wonders of the world - are actually pretty heavily "engineered". There is no doubt in my mind that, if we actually tried, we could make "batter" forests than "nature". More diversity, more vibrancy, more overall life. A more local excellent example is the evidence that native north americans would do periodic burns, with many varied benefits for the different ecosystems that underwent such engineering.
  - spqr0a1 10y ago
    We already have the technology. Many cultures have traditions of collecting nut caches from squirrels. They can harvest as much as 5kg per cache this way.
- cardamomo 10y ago
  Agroforestry, permaculture, food forests... There are communities of folks already thinking in this vein. It's an increasingly urgent area of study, as we are increasingly aware of mainstream industrial agriculture's dramatic toll on ecosystems through topsoil degradation, habitat loss, threats to biodiversity, and so on. But I don't believe a startup mentality fits an ecological approach to agriculture. Successfully shifting from the dominant model of agriculture is dependent on envisioning and creating alternative economic systems. EDIT: Changed wording in last sentence for clarity.
coldtea 10y ago
>The myth of the pristine Amazon rainforest - Indigenous inhabitants shaped the rainforest by domesticating tree species in pre-Columbian times That's not, as it's invariably used time and again, an excuse to do the same meddling with the rainforest now -- when we have 10,000 times their resources and effectives in killing the rainforest that these people had. It's like people don't understand differences of scale...
- agreedasdfs4 10y ago
  Agreed. 100 people manually managing the forest for their needs is a bit different from 10 companies using machines to level it faster than it can be replaced. The problem is people aren't explained "this is what is happening" on the regular. We're, purposefully, distracted by the news media and other power structures. If CBS or NBC had to air content that showed and explained what's going on, how rapidly we can wipe out an entire regions biome, the world would be a different place. Instead it's waved away as "but that would be interfering with free markets! Just listen to what this pundit says about stock markets!"
- M_Grey 10y ago
  "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!" -Upton Sinclair
whyenot 10y ago
Here is a better summary from Nature: http://www.nature.com/news/amazon-rainforest-was-shaped-by-an-ancient-hunger-for-fruits-and-nuts-1.21576#/ref-link-2 http://www.nature.com/news/amazon-rainforest-was-shaped-by-a... Here is the actual article (published on March 2nd): http://science.sciencemag.org/content/355/6324/466 http://science.sciencemag.org/content/355/6324/466 My takeaway: yes, humans may have aided in the dispersal of useful plants across the Amazon in pre-Columbian times, but other factors were more important. The authors also did a poor job (as they acknowledge) separating pre-Columbian effects from those in more recent times.
Spooky23 10y ago
I saw this article awhile ago and was puzzled by it. Unknown ancient peoples planted productive trees thousands of years ago. What does that mean with respect to the makeup of the forest thousands of years later? What does pristine even mean in this context?
rosser 10y ago
This article is an absurd misstatement of the research. Pretty much no-one is pushing the notion of a "pristine" pre-colonial Amazon. As the Nature article that also talks about this paper (both linked in another top level comment) points out, it's an open question "how much of an influence human activities have had on the Amazon" — not whether or not there's been an influence at all. I've spent a lot of time in the Peruvian Amazon, and have talked (language limitations notwithstanding) with Shipibo-Conibo and Mestizo villagers about their relationships with the forest, specifically including their understanding of how that relationship might have been in the past. That they engaged with it as both stewards and beneficiaries of its bounty should be a surprise to precisely no-one who has paid the slightest bit of attention. EDIT: Contrasting that pre-historical dynamic with the way many treat the forest today, having internalized Western economic values, is tragic. Clear-cutting; illegal logging; and slash-and burn, deplete, and move on to the next patch, are all examples of treating the forest as a resource, instead of as, for lack of a better word, a partner. And it shows. The place is slowly dying. Every time I go back, I can see more of the sand that lies mere inches under the staggeringly fecund topsoil blowing around, and getting into everything.
- woodandsteel 10y ago
  >Pretty much no-one is pushing the notion of a "pristine" pre-colonial Amazon. Growing up I was taught the pre-colonial Amazon was pristine, and it has been only in recent years I have started to hear a different story. I bet most people in the US still believe the pristine idea.
  - rosser 10y ago
    I have no idea how old you are, but it's not at all surprising to me that a narrative like that is the one that propagates through the broader culture. Among other things, it speaks to how the enlightened Europeans brought civilization and what-not to the benighted savages of the New World. We like those narratives... AFAIK, though, among the people who actually study this, or have cared to look into these matters for themselves (for whatever reason), that idea has no traction.
kafkaesq 10y ago
The title (which seems to imply that the destruction currently underway in the Amazon is no big deal, basically) is at odds with the text of the article itself, which takes pains to say: The impact of the indigenous populations in Amazonia in pre-Columbian times can in no way be compared with the deforestation seen in the last decades. “Industrial utilisation has already destroyed one million square kilometres,” Florian Wittmann says. The figure corresponds to three times the surface area of Germany and around 20 per cent of the entire Amazon rainforest. “It is of vital importance that we protect the remaining areas better,” the scientist concludes.
sn41 10y ago
The first Western chronicle of Gaspar de Carvajal [1] spoke of large cities and well-paved roads in a region which is now "pristine" jungle. These chronicles were dismissed for a long time as fabrication, but it seems now there is a lot of evidence that Carvajal was speaking the truth. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaspar_de_Carvajal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaspar_de_Carvajal

83 points by upen 10y ago

Recommended reading: 1491 by Charles C. Mann. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1491:_New_Revelations_of_the_Americas_Before_Columbus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1491:_New_Revelations_of_the_A...

notJim 10y ago
Yes, plus one to this. I read it and found it be thought-provoking, and simultaneously incredibly sad and incredibly hopeful. It also really upended various preconceived notions, I, and I think a lot of people had about these civilizations, which has turned me into someone who rants about pre-Columbian civilizations at parties :).

RangerScience 10y ago

Clearly someone (with deep pockets) needs to do a forest-as-infrastructure "startup". I'm not kidding. If there are people who can make something like asteroid mining (Planetary Resources), this can totally be a thing... ...that's already sort of a thing (forestry), when you consider that's how tree farms work - only those are "optimized" for wood production. Call it... "massively hetero-culture volumetric emergent agriculture", or something.

chongli 10y ago
What I'd really like to see is autonomous drones that can harvest small berries, seeds, peas, leaves and root vegetables. You could develop permaculture gardens with extremely high yields and virtually no labour. The drones could even work to cultivate predatory insects such as ladybugs and wasps to keep pests under control.
- rectangletangle 10y ago
  That would be cool as hell. There's something oddly fascinating about autonomous drones flying around the wilderness harvesting/gathering resources, like some strange futuristic caricature of nature.
  - wavefunction 10y ago
    I think the wilderness should be primarily left completely alone with light-impact human leisure allowed in certain contexts. I prefer the US public land approach where different lands are graded for different public uses, and certain areas are off-limits/prohibited to the general public because of practical concerns. There is a 4300m mountain right by my hometown and while one can hike over much of the mountain and the range that surrounds it, certain areas are off-limits during seasons of the year because the mountain sheep drop and raise their lambs there. Why not use your drones to turn your cities into gardens?
    - RangerScience 10y ago
      The article is almost about how the rainforests - long considered natural wonders of the world - are actually pretty heavily "engineered". There is no doubt in my mind that, if we actually tried, we could make "batter" forests than "nature". More diversity, more vibrancy, more overall life. A more local excellent example is the evidence that native north americans would do periodic burns, with many varied benefits for the different ecosystems that underwent such engineering.
- spqr0a1 10y ago
  We already have the technology. Many cultures have traditions of collecting nut caches from squirrels. They can harvest as much as 5kg per cache this way.
cardamomo 10y ago
Agroforestry, permaculture, food forests... There are communities of folks already thinking in this vein. It's an increasingly urgent area of study, as we are increasingly aware of mainstream industrial agriculture's dramatic toll on ecosystems through topsoil degradation, habitat loss, threats to biodiversity, and so on. But I don't believe a startup mentality fits an ecological approach to agriculture. Successfully shifting from the dominant model of agriculture is dependent on envisioning and creating alternative economic systems. EDIT: Changed wording in last sentence for clarity.

coldtea 10y ago

>The myth of the pristine Amazon rainforest - Indigenous inhabitants shaped the rainforest by domesticating tree species in pre-Columbian times That's not, as it's invariably used time and again, an excuse to do the same meddling with the rainforest now -- when we have 10,000 times their resources and effectives in killing the rainforest that these people had. It's like people don't understand differences of scale...

agreedasdfs4 10y ago
Agreed. 100 people manually managing the forest for their needs is a bit different from 10 companies using machines to level it faster than it can be replaced. The problem is people aren't explained "this is what is happening" on the regular. We're, purposefully, distracted by the news media and other power structures. If CBS or NBC had to air content that showed and explained what's going on, how rapidly we can wipe out an entire regions biome, the world would be a different place. Instead it's waved away as "but that would be interfering with free markets! Just listen to what this pundit says about stock markets!"
M_Grey 10y ago
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!" -Upton Sinclair

whyenot 10y ago

Here is a better summary from Nature: http://www.nature.com/news/amazon-rainforest-was-shaped-by-an-ancient-hunger-for-fruits-and-nuts-1.21576#/ref-link-2 http://www.nature.com/news/amazon-rainforest-was-shaped-by-a... Here is the actual article (published on March 2nd): http://science.sciencemag.org/content/355/6324/466 http://science.sciencemag.org/content/355/6324/466 My takeaway: yes, humans may have aided in the dispersal of useful plants across the Amazon in pre-Columbian times, but other factors were more important. The authors also did a poor job (as they acknowledge) separating pre-Columbian effects from those in more recent times.

Spooky23 10y ago

I saw this article awhile ago and was puzzled by it. Unknown ancient peoples planted productive trees thousands of years ago. What does that mean with respect to the makeup of the forest thousands of years later? What does pristine even mean in this context?

rosser 10y ago

This article is an absurd misstatement of the research. Pretty much no-one is pushing the notion of a "pristine" pre-colonial Amazon. As the Nature article that also talks about this paper (both linked in another top level comment) points out, it's an open question "how much of an influence human activities have had on the Amazon" — not whether or not there's been an influence at all. I've spent a lot of time in the Peruvian Amazon, and have talked (language limitations notwithstanding) with Shipibo-Conibo and Mestizo villagers about their relationships with the forest, specifically including their understanding of how that relationship might have been in the past. That they engaged with it as both stewards and beneficiaries of its bounty should be a surprise to precisely no-one who has paid the slightest bit of attention. EDIT: Contrasting that pre-historical dynamic with the way many treat the forest today, having internalized Western economic values, is tragic. Clear-cutting; illegal logging; and slash-and burn, deplete, and move on to the next patch, are all examples of treating the forest as a resource, instead of as, for lack of a better word, a partner. And it shows. The place is slowly dying. Every time I go back, I can see more of the sand that lies mere inches under the staggeringly fecund topsoil blowing around, and getting into everything.

woodandsteel 10y ago
>Pretty much no-one is pushing the notion of a "pristine" pre-colonial Amazon. Growing up I was taught the pre-colonial Amazon was pristine, and it has been only in recent years I have started to hear a different story. I bet most people in the US still believe the pristine idea.
- rosser 10y ago
  I have no idea how old you are, but it's not at all surprising to me that a narrative like that is the one that propagates through the broader culture. Among other things, it speaks to how the enlightened Europeans brought civilization and what-not to the benighted savages of the New World. We like those narratives... AFAIK, though, among the people who actually study this, or have cared to look into these matters for themselves (for whatever reason), that idea has no traction.

kafkaesq 10y ago

The title (which seems to imply that the destruction currently underway in the Amazon is no big deal, basically) is at odds with the text of the article itself, which takes pains to say: The impact of the indigenous populations in Amazonia in pre-Columbian times can in no way be compared with the deforestation seen in the last decades. “Industrial utilisation has already destroyed one million square kilometres,” Florian Wittmann says. The figure corresponds to three times the surface area of Germany and around 20 per cent of the entire Amazon rainforest. “It is of vital importance that we protect the remaining areas better,” the scientist concludes.

sn41 10y ago

The first Western chronicle of Gaspar de Carvajal [1] spoke of large cities and well-paved roads in a region which is now "pristine" jungle. These chronicles were dismissed for a long time as fabrication, but it seems now there is a lot of evidence that Carvajal was speaking the truth. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaspar_de_Carvajal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaspar_de_Carvajal