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You seem to not be a fan of capitalism. Do you live in China, Cuba, Vietnam, Laos or North Korea? If not, why not?

ue_ 10y ago
>China, Cuba, Vietnam These are capitalist countries, in which wage labour is the primary way by which workers sustain themselves; property is privately owned (and yes, the government can privately own property). >North Korea North Korea is an ethno-nationalist dictatorship run by a hereditary monarchy. What's your point?
- cmdrfred 10y ago
  Others disagree with your sentiment: http://www.thenewstrack.com/top-5-communist-countries-in-the-world/ http://www.thenewstrack.com/top-5-communist-countries-in-the... Where is an example of a good system then?
  - ue_ 10y ago
    People disagreeing with me does not mean that I'm wrong. Communism is defined as a stateless, classless and monelyess and anarchistic society in which peolpe are not paid with wages for work. Even in Socialism, the means of production are owned by the workers. None of the countries in this post have either of these qualities. However they all exhibit the fundamental properties of capitalism: the primacy of wage labour, private ownership of capital and the means of production, and production is for exchange value to be maximised over use value. I am an anarcho-Communist. I believe in the demolishing of the state and all unjustified hierarchical relations, including but not limited to the government and the bourgeoisie, to advance toward a society in which the means of production are collectively owned by the workers. Distributed networks of councils of workers, each of which implementing direct democracy to decide what is made and in what quantity. The workers take home the products of their labour, or agree to have them distributed to those who are unable to work, again via direct democracy. My system is the abolishment of exploitation of the workers and with it the system of oppression aided by capitalism's power structures, including misogyny, racism, homophobia etc.
    - cmdrfred 10y ago
      Anarchism - belief in the abolition of all government and the organization of society on a voluntary, cooperative basis without recourse to force or compulsion. Communism - a political theory derived from Karl Marx, advocating class war and leading to a society in which all property is publicly owned and each person works and is paid according to their abilities and needs. If there is no government, who distributes things based on needs? Why don't I just kill you and take everything you own? Communism is total government, Anarchism is no government. Its oil and water.
      - rblatz 10y ago
        That why it's the best system to support in Internet forums! You can just pick the parts from each that work for the argument you are making. Since they are polar opposites you have a lot of ground to pick ideals from. Thus winning the argument.
        ue_ 10y ago
        On what evidence do you proclaim that Communism works with a state? Or that there is wage labour? Can you find any quotation at all from Marx or Engels in support of the state? How do you explain the existence of anarcho-Communism if you believe Communism has a state? There is no need to be snarky. You could have just come out and said the point, vacuous as it is.
      - ue_ 10y ago
        >Communism is total government, Anarchism is no government. Its oil and water. This is false. Communism leads to a stateless society, which is known as anarchism, i.e without rulers. Where do you get your information that Communism has a government? > each person works and is paid according to their abilities and needs. Wrong! Workers are not paid within Communism, they collectively own the means of production and decide what to do with the products. Payment is a form of wage, and Communism abolishes wage labour completely. Communism is also moneyless. "All Socialists are agreed that the political state, and with it political authority, will disappear as a result of the coming social revolution, that is, that public functions will lose their political character and will be transformed into the simple administrative functions of watching over the true interests of society." -- Freidrich Engels, one of the founders of Marxism (https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1872/10/authority.htm https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1872/10/authorit...) >If there is no government, who distributes things based on needs? The workers collectively decide in the form of democratic voluntary participation councils whether anything should be distributed, to whom it will be distributed, how much is produced, etc; ideally these would be distributed, and several such councils exist all connected to each other, but none with authority over the other. In Communism, goods are not necessarily distributed, the workers receive the goods. However with the state of automation and abundance of resources (all resources are accessible collectively by the workers) sufficient can be produced to sustain others. However again, this is the collective and democratic choice of the workers. The kind of democracy I am talking about is not representative, it is direct or delegatory, and if delegatory the delegates are subject to instant recall. >Why don't I just kill you and take everything you own? Why would you steal in a society in which you yourself, a worker, collectively own the automation and tools to make what you want for yourself? Of all the offences, why would you choose theft? Within anarchism, how to deal with a violent offender would probably be a democratic decision. If you're interested in the crime question (which is a little problematic because 'crime' is defined by the state) then here is some reading: https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/scott-of-the-insurgency-culture-collective-the-anarchist-response-to-crime https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/scott-of-the-insurge... https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/robert-anton-wilson-anarchism-and-crime https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/robert-anton-wilson-... http://anarchy101.org/2784/would-anarchist-society-with-crimes-like-rape-serial-murder http://anarchy101.org/2784/would-anarchist-society-with-crim... https://www.reddit.com/r/DebateAnarchism/comments/44n3zi/how_would_crime_be_handled_within_an_anarchist/ https://www.reddit.com/r/DebateAnarchism/comments/44n3zi/how... https://www.reddit.com/r/DebateAnarchism/comments/3uhbfv/how_would_crime_be_handled_in_an_anarchist_society/ https://www.reddit.com/r/DebateAnarchism/comments/3uhbfv/how... https://www.reddit.com/r/Anarchy101/comments/2ph8uw/how_would_an_anarchist_society_prevent_and_deal/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Anarchy101/comments/2ph8uw/how_woul...

ue_ 10y ago

>China, Cuba, Vietnam These are capitalist countries, in which wage labour is the primary way by which workers sustain themselves; property is privately owned (and yes, the government can privately own property). >North Korea North Korea is an ethno-nationalist dictatorship run by a hereditary monarchy. What's your point?

cmdrfred 10y ago
Others disagree with your sentiment: http://www.thenewstrack.com/top-5-communist-countries-in-the-world/ http://www.thenewstrack.com/top-5-communist-countries-in-the... Where is an example of a good system then?
- ue_ 10y ago
  People disagreeing with me does not mean that I'm wrong. Communism is defined as a stateless, classless and monelyess and anarchistic society in which peolpe are not paid with wages for work. Even in Socialism, the means of production are owned by the workers. None of the countries in this post have either of these qualities. However they all exhibit the fundamental properties of capitalism: the primacy of wage labour, private ownership of capital and the means of production, and production is for exchange value to be maximised over use value. I am an anarcho-Communist. I believe in the demolishing of the state and all unjustified hierarchical relations, including but not limited to the government and the bourgeoisie, to advance toward a society in which the means of production are collectively owned by the workers. Distributed networks of councils of workers, each of which implementing direct democracy to decide what is made and in what quantity. The workers take home the products of their labour, or agree to have them distributed to those who are unable to work, again via direct democracy. My system is the abolishment of exploitation of the workers and with it the system of oppression aided by capitalism's power structures, including misogyny, racism, homophobia etc.
  - cmdrfred 10y ago
    Anarchism - belief in the abolition of all government and the organization of society on a voluntary, cooperative basis without recourse to force or compulsion. Communism - a political theory derived from Karl Marx, advocating class war and leading to a society in which all property is publicly owned and each person works and is paid according to their abilities and needs. If there is no government, who distributes things based on needs? Why don't I just kill you and take everything you own? Communism is total government, Anarchism is no government. Its oil and water.
    - rblatz 10y ago
      That why it's the best system to support in Internet forums! You can just pick the parts from each that work for the argument you are making. Since they are polar opposites you have a lot of ground to pick ideals from. Thus winning the argument.
      - ue_ 10y ago
        On what evidence do you proclaim that Communism works with a state? Or that there is wage labour? Can you find any quotation at all from Marx or Engels in support of the state? How do you explain the existence of anarcho-Communism if you believe Communism has a state? There is no need to be snarky. You could have just come out and said the point, vacuous as it is.
    - ue_ 10y ago
      >Communism is total government, Anarchism is no government. Its oil and water. This is false. Communism leads to a stateless society, which is known as anarchism, i.e without rulers. Where do you get your information that Communism has a government? > each person works and is paid according to their abilities and needs. Wrong! Workers are not paid within Communism, they collectively own the means of production and decide what to do with the products. Payment is a form of wage, and Communism abolishes wage labour completely. Communism is also moneyless. "All Socialists are agreed that the political state, and with it political authority, will disappear as a result of the coming social revolution, that is, that public functions will lose their political character and will be transformed into the simple administrative functions of watching over the true interests of society." -- Freidrich Engels, one of the founders of Marxism (https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1872/10/authority.htm https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1872/10/authorit...) >If there is no government, who distributes things based on needs? The workers collectively decide in the form of democratic voluntary participation councils whether anything should be distributed, to whom it will be distributed, how much is produced, etc; ideally these would be distributed, and several such councils exist all connected to each other, but none with authority over the other. In Communism, goods are not necessarily distributed, the workers receive the goods. However with the state of automation and abundance of resources (all resources are accessible collectively by the workers) sufficient can be produced to sustain others. However again, this is the collective and democratic choice of the workers. The kind of democracy I am talking about is not representative, it is direct or delegatory, and if delegatory the delegates are subject to instant recall. >Why don't I just kill you and take everything you own? Why would you steal in a society in which you yourself, a worker, collectively own the automation and tools to make what you want for yourself? Of all the offences, why would you choose theft? Within anarchism, how to deal with a violent offender would probably be a democratic decision. If you're interested in the crime question (which is a little problematic because 'crime' is defined by the state) then here is some reading: https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/scott-of-the-insurgency-culture-collective-the-anarchist-response-to-crime https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/scott-of-the-insurge... https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/robert-anton-wilson-anarchism-and-crime https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/robert-anton-wilson-... http://anarchy101.org/2784/would-anarchist-society-with-crimes-like-rape-serial-murder http://anarchy101.org/2784/would-anarchist-society-with-crim... https://www.reddit.com/r/DebateAnarchism/comments/44n3zi/how_would_crime_be_handled_within_an_anarchist/ https://www.reddit.com/r/DebateAnarchism/comments/44n3zi/how... https://www.reddit.com/r/DebateAnarchism/comments/3uhbfv/how_would_crime_be_handled_in_an_anarchist_society/ https://www.reddit.com/r/DebateAnarchism/comments/3uhbfv/how... https://www.reddit.com/r/Anarchy101/comments/2ph8uw/how_would_an_anarchist_society_prevent_and_deal/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Anarchy101/comments/2ph8uw/how_woul...