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Free dynos with a ____.herokuapp.com domain have SSL enabled by default, at no cost (under their wildcard certificate?). Seems the only missing case is when usi

Free dynos with a ____.herokuapp.com domain have SSL enabled by default, at no cost (under their wildcard certificate?). Seems the only missing case is when using a custom domain with a free dyno.

Karunamon 10y ago
It's an obvious missing case, and one that they are clearly conscious of given the constant insertion of the word "paid" in front of "dyno" throughout this announcement post. The mentality of holding out SSL as a paid addon needs to end. It needed to end years ago. It had no excuse to not end the moment LetsEncrypt went live.
- mattzito 10y ago
  Implementing support for LetsEncrypt SSL does have a cost associated with it, particularly at scale. I think restricting the feature to paid users is totally reasonable, particularly since it's still vastly cheaper than getting a traditional SSL certificate.
  - Karunamon 10y ago
    And what exactly would that cost be? Can it even be quantified? We're speaking of a 4x yearly ACME request of a few kilobytes going to and from the LE servers. It certainly isn't bandwidth. The engineering work was already done, and doesn't change based on the number of instances that are making the cert request. It certainly isn't labor. It certainly isn't storage. Certs are 2-4 kilobytes. Even if we assume Heroku has 5M active dynos and each one has its own unique cert, that's only 20 gigabytes worth of certs, which is miniscule. So where's the cost coming from? Answer: It isn't. This is just tier differentiation, not cost recovery.
    - travisby 10y ago
      > The engineering work was already done, and doesn't change based on the number of instances that are making the cert request. It certainly isn't labor. And what pays for that engineering work? The money you make from having the feature.
    - mattzito 10y ago
      Oh my - so, it's actually a lot more complicated than that. Let me run it through for you: - You have to build enough of a retry algorithm so that you start renewing well in advance of the expiration date. - You then have to build the mechanism for warning customers that there was an issue renewing for one of a variety of reasons - You then have to deal with situations where LE has issues, which happens fairly often - There's a queueing system, where you have to handle not sending too many certs at once - You will end up in scenarios where users will migrate off of you, not tell you, attempt to issue another LE cert with another service, and fail, and then blame you - Similarly, you will have users who connect and disconnect domains, and your system has to be smart enough to properly revoke certificates without locking out a domain from too many retries - and then what happens when you can't renew a cert for whatever reason? Do you break the user's site? Do you fall back to http? I'm not saying it's millions of dollars, but at scale, it's complicated. Here's a blog post about how Squarespace did this (disclosure, I work there): https://engineering.squarespace.com/blog/2016/implementing-ssl-tls-for-all-squarespace-sites https://engineering.squarespace.com/blog/2016/implementing-s... Saying it's "just" a 4x acme request annually demonstrates a real lack of understanding of supporting this kind of system at scale.
      - Karunamon 10y ago
        I didn't say that it was easy. I enumerated three things that it can't be. Given that Heroku is already generating certs on the fly for the (randomly named) dynos, offering that is even more engineering work than just sending a cert request for a custom domain, the numbers of which will be significantly smaller. [DISREGARD THIS - no they're not. Those are all on a single wildcard] My whole gist here is that every conceivable practical excuse I can think of for not extending that feature out to custom domains resolves as a nonissue, which only leaves feature differentiation to drive sales as the remaining option. Which, as mentioned before, is a legitimate business tactic, but morally evil in the security climate of 201x+.
        packetized 10y ago
        They aren't generating certs on the fly for randomly named dynos: -bash-4.1$ curl -vkLs https://wind-river-5693.herokuapp.com 2>&1 | grep certificate * Server certificate: *.herokuapp.com * Server certificate: DigiCert SHA2 High Assurance Server CA * Server certificate: DigiCert High Assurance EV Root CA -bash-4.1$
    - packetized 10y ago
      Saying that "that's only 20 gigabytes worth of certs" is roughly equivalent to saying "this database is only 1.8TB - that's miniscule, 2TB drives are only $70!". There's a whole lot more moving parts, especially at scale (developing a system to manage 5M certs? Pretty sure that's a whiteboard interview question somewhere).
      - Karunamon 10y ago
        Please read this conversation with the context in mind rather than replying to the one statement. When you're referring to costs as a category, as that statement was, the "moving parts" aren't factored into storage costs.
        packetized 10y ago
        I have, and I believe that you're being extraordinarily reductionist about the true costs involved in developing and operating services like certificate management at scale.

Free dynos with a ____.herokuapp.com domain have SSL enabled by default, at no cost (under their wildcard certificate?). Seems the only missing case is when using a custom domain with a free dyno.

Karunamon 10y ago

It's an obvious missing case, and one that they are clearly conscious of given the constant insertion of the word "paid" in front of "dyno" throughout this announcement post. The mentality of holding out SSL as a paid addon needs to end. It needed to end years ago. It had no excuse to not end the moment LetsEncrypt went live.

mattzito 10y ago
Implementing support for LetsEncrypt SSL does have a cost associated with it, particularly at scale. I think restricting the feature to paid users is totally reasonable, particularly since it's still vastly cheaper than getting a traditional SSL certificate.
- Karunamon 10y ago
  And what exactly would that cost be? Can it even be quantified? We're speaking of a 4x yearly ACME request of a few kilobytes going to and from the LE servers. It certainly isn't bandwidth. The engineering work was already done, and doesn't change based on the number of instances that are making the cert request. It certainly isn't labor. It certainly isn't storage. Certs are 2-4 kilobytes. Even if we assume Heroku has 5M active dynos and each one has its own unique cert, that's only 20 gigabytes worth of certs, which is miniscule. So where's the cost coming from? Answer: It isn't. This is just tier differentiation, not cost recovery.
  - travisby 10y ago
    > The engineering work was already done, and doesn't change based on the number of instances that are making the cert request. It certainly isn't labor. And what pays for that engineering work? The money you make from having the feature.
  - mattzito 10y ago
    Oh my - so, it's actually a lot more complicated than that. Let me run it through for you: - You have to build enough of a retry algorithm so that you start renewing well in advance of the expiration date. - You then have to build the mechanism for warning customers that there was an issue renewing for one of a variety of reasons - You then have to deal with situations where LE has issues, which happens fairly often - There's a queueing system, where you have to handle not sending too many certs at once - You will end up in scenarios where users will migrate off of you, not tell you, attempt to issue another LE cert with another service, and fail, and then blame you - Similarly, you will have users who connect and disconnect domains, and your system has to be smart enough to properly revoke certificates without locking out a domain from too many retries - and then what happens when you can't renew a cert for whatever reason? Do you break the user's site? Do you fall back to http? I'm not saying it's millions of dollars, but at scale, it's complicated. Here's a blog post about how Squarespace did this (disclosure, I work there): https://engineering.squarespace.com/blog/2016/implementing-ssl-tls-for-all-squarespace-sites https://engineering.squarespace.com/blog/2016/implementing-s... Saying it's "just" a 4x acme request annually demonstrates a real lack of understanding of supporting this kind of system at scale.
    - Karunamon 10y ago
      I didn't say that it was easy. I enumerated three things that it can't be. Given that Heroku is already generating certs on the fly for the (randomly named) dynos, offering that is even more engineering work than just sending a cert request for a custom domain, the numbers of which will be significantly smaller. [DISREGARD THIS - no they're not. Those are all on a single wildcard] My whole gist here is that every conceivable practical excuse I can think of for not extending that feature out to custom domains resolves as a nonissue, which only leaves feature differentiation to drive sales as the remaining option. Which, as mentioned before, is a legitimate business tactic, but morally evil in the security climate of 201x+.
      - packetized 10y ago
        They aren't generating certs on the fly for randomly named dynos: -bash-4.1$ curl -vkLs https://wind-river-5693.herokuapp.com 2>&1 | grep certificate * Server certificate: *.herokuapp.com * Server certificate: DigiCert SHA2 High Assurance Server CA * Server certificate: DigiCert High Assurance EV Root CA -bash-4.1$
  - packetized 10y ago
    Saying that "that's only 20 gigabytes worth of certs" is roughly equivalent to saying "this database is only 1.8TB - that's miniscule, 2TB drives are only $70!". There's a whole lot more moving parts, especially at scale (developing a system to manage 5M certs? Pretty sure that's a whiteboard interview question somewhere).
    - Karunamon 10y ago
      Please read this conversation with the context in mind rather than replying to the one statement. When you're referring to costs as a category, as that statement was, the "moving parts" aren't factored into storage costs.
      - packetized 10y ago
        I have, and I believe that you're being extraordinarily reductionist about the true costs involved in developing and operating services like certificate management at scale.