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...And Enron, and Goldman, and all of the companies that tanked us in 2008. Right? Where is this right spelled out exactly, except in the fiction that corporati

by M_Grey 10y ago

...And Enron, and Goldman, and all of the companies that tanked us in 2008. Right? Where is this right spelled out exactly, except in the fiction that corporations are people without the responsibilities?

John23832 10y ago
(Even though I disagree with it) Many courts interpretations of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizens_United_v._FEC https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizens_United_v._FEC Lobbying is speech. You can't just censor people you disagree with. That's not the basis of our democratic society. The price of being able to speak what you think is good, is having to hear what you think is bad.
- maxerickson 10y ago
  I think most of this thread is explained by people not realizing you were making a banal first amendment argument.
  - jakelazaroff 10y ago
    I think OP is moving the goalposts here. They also say "It's wrong when our elected officials bend to those business interest when it goes against the public interest", which is clearly a moral argument as opposed to a legal one.
    - John23832 10y ago
      I wasn't trying to move the goalposts. I was asked where that right was defined, and so I cited law.
      - jakelazaroff 10y ago
        Then is your position that businesses should not be expected to behave ethically, but politicians should? That's a pretty weird line to draw. There's no reason we shouldn't expect all members of society to adhere to a generally agreed-upon code of ethics, even if parts of that code shouldn't be made into law.
        John23832 10y ago
        In a perfect society, everyone would act ethically. That isn't true sadly. We have to often force people to be ethical. We force businesses into ethics through law. We can't guilt trip a business. We can however expect ethics/morality from politicians because they are people. And really, they are elected into their positions because of their ethics.
        jakelazaroff 10y ago
        > We can't guilt trip a business. Sure we can. We can complain to them, boycott them, post stories on HN so other people know they're unethical, etc. > We can however expect ethics/morality from politicians because they are people. Businesses are just groups of people. A business behaves ethically only if the people who make it up behave ethically. We don't lose the ability to criticize them just because they're acting as a group.
        John23832 10y ago
        > Sure we can. We can complain to them, boycott them, post stories on HN so other people know they're unethical, etc. Sure, we could do that, but unless any of those things affect profit, the business won't change. Morality doesn't motivate business, profit/money does. > Businesses are just groups of people. A business behaves ethically only if the people who make it up behave ethically. We don't lose the ability to criticize them just because they're acting as a group. Sure, and if people feel morally conflicted an leave the business, they are replaced. If there comes a time where so many people are morally conflicted that there are not enough people to run effectively run the business, then the business will change or cease to exist. Even in that situation, you have a moral issue for the workers that became a financial issue for the business. Businesses have no morals. The people who run it do.
        jakelazaroff 10y ago
        All your arguments boil down to: > Morality doesn't motivate business, profit/money does. …which has literally nothing to do with the ethics of Intuit's and H&R Block's lobbying. They are knowingly doing a thing that will hurt people. That's wrong. Full stop.
- M_Grey 10y ago
  That would be the aforementioned fiction I was expecting you'd trot out. You really are just abandoning anything like a moral or intellectual dimension of responsibility in favor of pure legalism, up to and including IG Farben in Nazi Germany?! That's not really a position, it's a tragedy.
  - John23832 10y ago
    Are you really calling Citizens United a work of fiction? Asked where that right was spelled out, and I gave it to you. I also didn't make a opinion on IG Farben... I called that argument straw man and ignored it because IG Farben doesn't currently exist. Some people's appetite for argument and being proven correct is insatiable.
JoshTriplett 10y ago
Whether you believe in the Citizen's United decision or not, companies are still groups of people. People, alone or in groups, have the right to speak, and to petition the government.
- M_Grey 10y ago
  Lets not pretend that a lobbying organization is somehow representing anything other than the company and its shareholders.
  - JoshTriplett 10y ago
    For clarity, I think this particular attempt at lobbying is terrible and they ought to be blasted for it publicly. That doesn't mean it should be illegal for a group of people to talk to the government about their interests, just that if those interests are counter to the interests of the general public then we should judge that accordingly.

by M_Grey 10y ago

John23832 10y ago

(Even though I disagree with it) Many courts interpretations of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizens_United_v._FEC https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizens_United_v._FEC Lobbying is speech. You can't just censor people you disagree with. That's not the basis of our democratic society. The price of being able to speak what you think is good, is having to hear what you think is bad.

maxerickson 10y ago
I think most of this thread is explained by people not realizing you were making a banal first amendment argument.
- jakelazaroff 10y ago
  I think OP is moving the goalposts here. They also say "It's wrong when our elected officials bend to those business interest when it goes against the public interest", which is clearly a moral argument as opposed to a legal one.
  - John23832 10y ago
    I wasn't trying to move the goalposts. I was asked where that right was defined, and so I cited law.
    - jakelazaroff 10y ago
      Then is your position that businesses should not be expected to behave ethically, but politicians should? That's a pretty weird line to draw. There's no reason we shouldn't expect all members of society to adhere to a generally agreed-upon code of ethics, even if parts of that code shouldn't be made into law.
      - John23832 10y ago
        In a perfect society, everyone would act ethically. That isn't true sadly. We have to often force people to be ethical. We force businesses into ethics through law. We can't guilt trip a business. We can however expect ethics/morality from politicians because they are people. And really, they are elected into their positions because of their ethics.
        jakelazaroff 10y ago
        > We can't guilt trip a business. Sure we can. We can complain to them, boycott them, post stories on HN so other people know they're unethical, etc. > We can however expect ethics/morality from politicians because they are people. Businesses are just groups of people. A business behaves ethically only if the people who make it up behave ethically. We don't lose the ability to criticize them just because they're acting as a group.
        John23832 10y ago
        > Sure we can. We can complain to them, boycott them, post stories on HN so other people know they're unethical, etc. Sure, we could do that, but unless any of those things affect profit, the business won't change. Morality doesn't motivate business, profit/money does. > Businesses are just groups of people. A business behaves ethically only if the people who make it up behave ethically. We don't lose the ability to criticize them just because they're acting as a group. Sure, and if people feel morally conflicted an leave the business, they are replaced. If there comes a time where so many people are morally conflicted that there are not enough people to run effectively run the business, then the business will change or cease to exist. Even in that situation, you have a moral issue for the workers that became a financial issue for the business. Businesses have no morals. The people who run it do.
        jakelazaroff 10y ago
        All your arguments boil down to: > Morality doesn't motivate business, profit/money does. …which has literally nothing to do with the ethics of Intuit's and H&R Block's lobbying. They are knowingly doing a thing that will hurt people. That's wrong. Full stop.
M_Grey 10y ago
That would be the aforementioned fiction I was expecting you'd trot out. You really are just abandoning anything like a moral or intellectual dimension of responsibility in favor of pure legalism, up to and including IG Farben in Nazi Germany?! That's not really a position, it's a tragedy.
- John23832 10y ago
  Are you really calling Citizens United a work of fiction? Asked where that right was spelled out, and I gave it to you. I also didn't make a opinion on IG Farben... I called that argument straw man and ignored it because IG Farben doesn't currently exist. Some people's appetite for argument and being proven correct is insatiable.

JoshTriplett 10y ago

Whether you believe in the Citizen's United decision or not, companies are still groups of people. People, alone or in groups, have the right to speak, and to petition the government.

M_Grey 10y ago
Lets not pretend that a lobbying organization is somehow representing anything other than the company and its shareholders.
- JoshTriplett 10y ago
  For clarity, I think this particular attempt at lobbying is terrible and they ought to be blasted for it publicly. That doesn't mean it should be illegal for a group of people to talk to the government about their interests, just that if those interests are counter to the interests of the general public then we should judge that accordingly.