4 ms·

I'm sorry, but no. A business can have interests that are obviously and deeply evil, such as in a very extreme example, the production of Zyclon B for the Nazis

by M_Grey 10y ago

I'm sorry, but no. A business can have interests that are obviously and deeply evil, such as in a very extreme example, the production of Zyclon B for the Nazis. It is a myth that earning money somehow insulates you from being scum, and if you're acting against the interests of literally everyone except yourself and at their direct expense, you might be scum. If you're saying that's right, I'd argue the point strenuously. It's also wrong when our elected officials, predictably, bend.

John23832 10y ago
Even scum have the right to lobby for their interest...
- M_Grey 10y ago
  Even IG Farben did?
  - John23832 10y ago
    That's strawman, IG Farben was a company in Nazi Germany, which had different laws and different rights. If you want a better example, yes, Haliburton, GSK, and Koch, all have the right to lobby in their best interests (at least in the US).
    - M_Grey 10y ago
      ...And Enron, and Goldman, and all of the companies that tanked us in 2008. Right? Where is this right spelled out exactly, except in the fiction that corporations are people without the responsibilities?
      - John23832 10y ago
        (Even though I disagree with it) Many courts interpretations of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizens_United_v._FEC https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizens_United_v._FEC Lobbying is speech. You can't just censor people you disagree with. That's not the basis of our democratic society. The price of being able to speak what you think is good, is having to hear what you think is bad.
        maxerickson 10y ago
        I think most of this thread is explained by people not realizing you were making a banal first amendment argument.
        jakelazaroff 10y ago
        I think OP is moving the goalposts here. They also say "It's wrong when our elected officials bend to those business interest when it goes against the public interest", which is clearly a moral argument as opposed to a legal one.
        John23832 10y ago
        I wasn't trying to move the goalposts. I was asked where that right was defined, and so I cited law.
        jakelazaroff 10y ago
        Then is your position that businesses should not be expected to behave ethically, but politicians should? That's a pretty weird line to draw. There's no reason we shouldn't expect all members of society to adhere to a generally agreed-upon code of ethics, even if parts of that code shouldn't be made into law.
        John23832 10y ago
        In a perfect society, everyone would act ethically. That isn't true sadly. We have to often force people to be ethical. We force businesses into ethics through law. We can't guilt trip a business. We can however expect ethics/morality from politicians because they are people. And really, they are elected into their positions because of their ethics.
        jakelazaroff 10y ago
        > We can't guilt trip a business. Sure we can. We can complain to them, boycott them, post stories on HN so other people know they're unethical, etc. > We can however expect ethics/morality from politicians because they are people. Businesses are just groups of people. A business behaves ethically only if the people who make it up behave ethically. We don't lose the ability to criticize them just because they're acting as a group.
      - JoshTriplett 10y ago
        Whether you believe in the Citizen's United decision or not, companies are still groups of people. People, alone or in groups, have the right to speak, and to petition the government.
        M_Grey 10y ago
        Lets not pretend that a lobbying organization is somehow representing anything other than the company and its shareholders.
        JoshTriplett 10y ago
        For clarity, I think this particular attempt at lobbying is terrible and they ought to be blasted for it publicly. That doesn't mean it should be illegal for a group of people to talk to the government about their interests, just that if those interests are counter to the interests of the general public then we should judge that accordingly.

by M_Grey 10y ago

John23832 10y ago

Even scum have the right to lobby for their interest...

M_Grey 10y ago
Even IG Farben did?
- John23832 10y ago
  That's strawman, IG Farben was a company in Nazi Germany, which had different laws and different rights. If you want a better example, yes, Haliburton, GSK, and Koch, all have the right to lobby in their best interests (at least in the US).
  - M_Grey 10y ago
    ...And Enron, and Goldman, and all of the companies that tanked us in 2008. Right? Where is this right spelled out exactly, except in the fiction that corporations are people without the responsibilities?
    - John23832 10y ago
      (Even though I disagree with it) Many courts interpretations of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizens_United_v._FEC https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizens_United_v._FEC Lobbying is speech. You can't just censor people you disagree with. That's not the basis of our democratic society. The price of being able to speak what you think is good, is having to hear what you think is bad.
      - maxerickson 10y ago
        I think most of this thread is explained by people not realizing you were making a banal first amendment argument.
        jakelazaroff 10y ago
        I think OP is moving the goalposts here. They also say "It's wrong when our elected officials bend to those business interest when it goes against the public interest", which is clearly a moral argument as opposed to a legal one.
        John23832 10y ago
        I wasn't trying to move the goalposts. I was asked where that right was defined, and so I cited law.
        jakelazaroff 10y ago
        Then is your position that businesses should not be expected to behave ethically, but politicians should? That's a pretty weird line to draw. There's no reason we shouldn't expect all members of society to adhere to a generally agreed-upon code of ethics, even if parts of that code shouldn't be made into law.
        John23832 10y ago
        In a perfect society, everyone would act ethically. That isn't true sadly. We have to often force people to be ethical. We force businesses into ethics through law. We can't guilt trip a business. We can however expect ethics/morality from politicians because they are people. And really, they are elected into their positions because of their ethics.
        jakelazaroff 10y ago
        > We can't guilt trip a business. Sure we can. We can complain to them, boycott them, post stories on HN so other people know they're unethical, etc. > We can however expect ethics/morality from politicians because they are people. Businesses are just groups of people. A business behaves ethically only if the people who make it up behave ethically. We don't lose the ability to criticize them just because they're acting as a group.
    - JoshTriplett 10y ago
      Whether you believe in the Citizen's United decision or not, companies are still groups of people. People, alone or in groups, have the right to speak, and to petition the government.
      - M_Grey 10y ago
        Lets not pretend that a lobbying organization is somehow representing anything other than the company and its shareholders.
        JoshTriplett 10y ago
        For clarity, I think this particular attempt at lobbying is terrible and they ought to be blasted for it publicly. That doesn't mean it should be illegal for a group of people to talk to the government about their interests, just that if those interests are counter to the interests of the general public then we should judge that accordingly.