7 ms·

Gay men and lesbian women less likely to be employed in a leadership position

23 points by upen 10y ago

joestr87 10y ago
> Participants were not informed of the sexual orientation of the person but allowed to freely guess from the voice or face of the individual. > ‘gay- sounding’ voice Jesus, it's batshit-insane to me that people still think like this.
- mathw 10y ago
  It's awful. I know plenty of straight guys who have a "gay-sounding" voice, and I'm gay but people tell me I sound "straight", which at least in my experience means this is all complete nonsense. What they really mean is that if someone thinks you're gay or lesbian then you're likely to suffer from homophobic discrimination. While a reminder of that is probably useful for the world at large, it's not new to anybody who identifies outside the straight cisgender categories. Or actually, anybody who is straight and cis who somebody has decided "looks gay".
  - joestr87 10y ago
    I know right? People look for things that confirm their own biases ("X Y and Z are gay and they sound like this"). Oh, and I wasn't having a go at the study, even if it is a little ropey, just bewildered that people still think in that way. Like people thinking that if you're black you probably talk a certain way, or like certain music.
  - dragonwriter 10y ago
    > What they really mean is that if someone thinks you're gay or lesbian then you're likely to suffer from homophobic discrimination. Discrimination is always based on characteristics as percieved by the one doing the discrimination.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- redsummer 10y ago
  People are pretty accurate at judging 'gay faces': https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/bering-in-mind/something-queer-about-that-face/ https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/bering-in-mind/somethin... I'm sure voices are similar. I expect an AI would be able to distinguish without too many problems.
  - joestr87 10y ago
    "For example, when shown only the eye region ("without brows and cropped to the outer canthi so that not even "crow's-feet" were visible"), perceivers were amazingly still able to accurately identify a man as being gay" That's pretty mental.
wmccullough 10y ago
I would like to see this study replicated in different areas throughout the United States and the world. I suspect that different regions will produce different results based purely upon cultural norms of a given society in an area. To make the blanket statement that this is true is not acceptable to me. "Studies show eggs are good for you"
djhworld 10y ago
I wonder if there is study into biases around cultural interests too, e.g. if a male applies for a leadership position and lists "dance" as his primary hobby or interest, whether implicit cultural biases or assumptions play a role as well.
Raphmedia 10y ago
Help me understand this test that they did. So, they have taken a group of homosexuals, without any history of leadership, and asked a group to rate how they would do as CEO based on voice only. The group answered based on sound alone that those individuals were not CEO material. Well, I wouldn't pass as a CEO either and I don't have a, I quote, "‘gay- sounding’ voice". The leaders I have know -- both male and female -- had huge charismatic voices. They had presence. They spoke in a room full of people and their voice would pick up. They would get attention right away. How is the lack of this voice linked to discrimination against the gay community? For this study to have any values in my eyes they would need to test actual CEOs. Actual people in leadership positions.
- thehardsphere 10y ago
  > So, they have taken a group of homosexuals, without any history of leadership, and asked a group to rate how they would do as CEO based on voice only. The group answered based on sound alone that those individuals were not CEO material. Forgive me for asking this, but the article is currently unavailable due to 503. Did they describe at all the group who did the rating and choosing? I would think that if the goal was to identify whether or not homosexuals are barred from senior corporate leadership positions, they'd want to test groups of people who actually evaluate people for suitability in senior corporate leadership positions. As opposed to average people who only know CEOs from television, and thus could only evaluate whether someone fits the Hollywood stereotype of what a CEO is.
  - Raphmedia 10y ago
    "Participants were recruited online through students’ contacts at a large Italian university. In Study 1a, the final sample consisted of 81 participants (37 males, Mage = 21.89 years, SD = 3.73). This sample was obtained after excluding participants who self-identified as non-heterosexuals (n = 9) or who had reported technical problems (n = 5) from the 95 participants who had completed the survey. In Study 2a, participants were recruited through students’ contacts using a snowball procedure and provided with the link to an online survey. The final sample consisted of 63 participants (35 males and 28 females; Mage = 26.57 years, SD = 5.59). From the initial sample of 117 participants who had access to the survey, we excluded those who identified as non-heterosexual (n = 9), reported technical problems (n = 13), failed to complete the survey (n = 15), or did not correctly recall the job vacancy (n = 17). In Study 2b, groups of students were tested simultaneously in the same room. Each participant individually completed an online survey using headphones. The final sample consisted of 92 participants (3 males and 89 females, Mage = 19.45 years, SD = 1.39). From the initial sample of 152 participants, we excluded those who identified as non-heterosexual (n = 8), reported technical problems (n = 15), or failed to correctly recall the job vacancy (n = 23)." https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10508-017-0962-0 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10508-017-0962-0
redsummer 10y ago
John Maynard Keynes was criticised because he was "childless and gay" and therefore he "did not care about future generations". "Keynes didn't care about the long-run because he was a homosexual, had no children" according to Niall Ferguson. https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/05/niall-fergusons-history-john-maynard-keynes-gayness/315603/ https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/05/niall-f... I'm sure having children affects your view of the future The gay men I have known do seem to tend towards narcissism and short-term thinking. Sometimes that can be a kind leadership trait I suppose. And sometimes it can't.
hugh4life 10y ago
Gay men are more likely to be shorter: http://blog.timesunion.com/kristi/2010/03/03/shorter-men-more-likely-to-be-gay/24152/ http://blog.timesunion.com/kristi/2010/03/03/shorter-men-mor... Lesbians are more likely to be obese: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/federal-eye/wp/2014/09/02/why-the-federal-government-spent-3-million-to-study-lesbian-obesity/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/federal-eye/wp/2014/09/0... Whether you like it or not, both of those will be factors in influencing who gets put into leadership positions.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]

23 points by upen 10y ago

> Participants were not informed of the sexual orientation of the person but allowed to freely guess from the voice or face of the individual. > ‘gay- sounding’ voice Jesus, it's batshit-insane to me that people still think like this.

mathw 10y ago
It's awful. I know plenty of straight guys who have a "gay-sounding" voice, and I'm gay but people tell me I sound "straight", which at least in my experience means this is all complete nonsense. What they really mean is that if someone thinks you're gay or lesbian then you're likely to suffer from homophobic discrimination. While a reminder of that is probably useful for the world at large, it's not new to anybody who identifies outside the straight cisgender categories. Or actually, anybody who is straight and cis who somebody has decided "looks gay".
- joestr87 10y ago
  I know right? People look for things that confirm their own biases ("X Y and Z are gay and they sound like this"). Oh, and I wasn't having a go at the study, even if it is a little ropey, just bewildered that people still think in that way. Like people thinking that if you're black you probably talk a certain way, or like certain music.
- dragonwriter 10y ago
  > What they really mean is that if someone thinks you're gay or lesbian then you're likely to suffer from homophobic discrimination. Discrimination is always based on characteristics as percieved by the one doing the discrimination.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
redsummer 10y ago
People are pretty accurate at judging 'gay faces': https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/bering-in-mind/something-queer-about-that-face/ https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/bering-in-mind/somethin... I'm sure voices are similar. I expect an AI would be able to distinguish without too many problems.
- joestr87 10y ago
  "For example, when shown only the eye region ("without brows and cropped to the outer canthi so that not even "crow's-feet" were visible"), perceivers were amazingly still able to accurately identify a man as being gay" That's pretty mental.

wmccullough 10y ago

I would like to see this study replicated in different areas throughout the United States and the world. I suspect that different regions will produce different results based purely upon cultural norms of a given society in an area. To make the blanket statement that this is true is not acceptable to me. "Studies show eggs are good for you"

djhworld 10y ago

I wonder if there is study into biases around cultural interests too, e.g. if a male applies for a leadership position and lists "dance" as his primary hobby or interest, whether implicit cultural biases or assumptions play a role as well.

Raphmedia 10y ago

Help me understand this test that they did. So, they have taken a group of homosexuals, without any history of leadership, and asked a group to rate how they would do as CEO based on voice only. The group answered based on sound alone that those individuals were not CEO material. Well, I wouldn't pass as a CEO either and I don't have a, I quote, "‘gay- sounding’ voice". The leaders I have know -- both male and female -- had huge charismatic voices. They had presence. They spoke in a room full of people and their voice would pick up. They would get attention right away. How is the lack of this voice linked to discrimination against the gay community? For this study to have any values in my eyes they would need to test actual CEOs. Actual people in leadership positions.

thehardsphere 10y ago
> So, they have taken a group of homosexuals, without any history of leadership, and asked a group to rate how they would do as CEO based on voice only. The group answered based on sound alone that those individuals were not CEO material. Forgive me for asking this, but the article is currently unavailable due to 503. Did they describe at all the group who did the rating and choosing? I would think that if the goal was to identify whether or not homosexuals are barred from senior corporate leadership positions, they'd want to test groups of people who actually evaluate people for suitability in senior corporate leadership positions. As opposed to average people who only know CEOs from television, and thus could only evaluate whether someone fits the Hollywood stereotype of what a CEO is.
- Raphmedia 10y ago
  "Participants were recruited online through students’ contacts at a large Italian university. In Study 1a, the final sample consisted of 81 participants (37 males, Mage = 21.89 years, SD = 3.73). This sample was obtained after excluding participants who self-identified as non-heterosexuals (n = 9) or who had reported technical problems (n = 5) from the 95 participants who had completed the survey. In Study 2a, participants were recruited through students’ contacts using a snowball procedure and provided with the link to an online survey. The final sample consisted of 63 participants (35 males and 28 females; Mage = 26.57 years, SD = 5.59). From the initial sample of 117 participants who had access to the survey, we excluded those who identified as non-heterosexual (n = 9), reported technical problems (n = 13), failed to complete the survey (n = 15), or did not correctly recall the job vacancy (n = 17). In Study 2b, groups of students were tested simultaneously in the same room. Each participant individually completed an online survey using headphones. The final sample consisted of 92 participants (3 males and 89 females, Mage = 19.45 years, SD = 1.39). From the initial sample of 152 participants, we excluded those who identified as non-heterosexual (n = 8), reported technical problems (n = 15), or failed to correctly recall the job vacancy (n = 23)." https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10508-017-0962-0 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10508-017-0962-0

redsummer 10y ago

John Maynard Keynes was criticised because he was "childless and gay" and therefore he "did not care about future generations". "Keynes didn't care about the long-run because he was a homosexual, had no children" according to Niall Ferguson. https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/05/niall-fergusons-history-john-maynard-keynes-gayness/315603/ https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/05/niall-f... I'm sure having children affects your view of the future The gay men I have known do seem to tend towards narcissism and short-term thinking. Sometimes that can be a kind leadership trait I suppose. And sometimes it can't.

hugh4life 10y ago

Gay men are more likely to be shorter: http://blog.timesunion.com/kristi/2010/03/03/shorter-men-more-likely-to-be-gay/24152/ http://blog.timesunion.com/kristi/2010/03/03/shorter-men-mor... Lesbians are more likely to be obese: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/federal-eye/wp/2014/09/02/why-the-federal-government-spent-3-million-to-study-lesbian-obesity/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/federal-eye/wp/2014/09/0... Whether you like it or not, both of those will be factors in influencing who gets put into leadership positions.

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]