5 ms·

Sad that having even minimal employee rights is some how seen as exceptional.

misterhtmlcss 10y ago
@lostboys totally agree, but thankful someone is at least offering me more than serf rights
pjmlp 10y ago
From someone that is able to enjoy proper work conditions in socialist Europe, the state of work condition expectations in US is always surprising. Sometimes I get the feeling that even my own country (Portugal), with all its issues regarding work conditions, still appears to be in better shape.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- De_Delph 10y ago
  Hi from socialist Netherlands, where the issues around IP and employers are EXACTLY the same as the US.
  - pjmlp 10y ago
    Are they enforceable? I am no lawyer, but I don't expect that under EU work law anything done outside work can be forbidden in the work contract, in any member country. The only issue I see from law point of view, is if whatever is being done, in terms of private projects, is related to knowledge acquired during the work activities, sometimes under NDA. Here yes, there can be issues. Now if the projects are done in technology stacks or business domains completely different from what happens at work, then it isn't enforceable. However I am no lawyer.
  - lostboys67 10y ago
    Which of the 52 states is that? Its probably closer to the CA i.e. it has to be related to the employers work not everying.
- RhodesianHunter 10y ago
  From someone who would give his left leg to work in Europe, but not 4/5 of his salary, enjoy your wins!
chadlavi 10y ago
For real, this should be the norm. Good on GitHub anyway though!
freebs 10y ago
It really is sad. The worst part is, employees are treated poorly at many companies. I feel like it's even worse during and after a recession because employers know people are desperate. I have been working on mplyees.com, a site where employees can share what needs to change publicly and anonymously. Hopefully we can bridge this divide since employee happiness is key to a successful business.
endymi0n 10y ago
I couldn't care less about IP myself - but the real reason this stuff is pretty standard is that investors are somehow really bullish about IP (the "secret sauce"). Against our own beliefs, we decided for pretty strict contract terms around IP as this topic usually turns out to be one of the standard blockers in any funding and exit negotiations. In former companies, after a financing round people had to sign new terms and that can get pretty complicated. That's the real reason things are pretty messed up all around protecting IP. As we've survived without funding so far, we're thinking of relaxing this as well. Kudos to GitHub's investors for staying away from this nonsense.
- pdimitar 10y ago
  Such offers must be refused. I know it's easier said than done when you have your back against the wall. But turning down such people in favor of those who respect your IP is always the better investment down the line.
- lostboys67 10y ago
  This is not about trade secrets its about outside work not related to your day job.
conanbatt 10y ago
The real question is how expensive they are. The US has les protections but thus pays a lot more. Soft engineers moving from SF to europe get their income cut by more than 50%. In the end, more europeans move to the Us that the other way around, showing ultimately what the body prefers.
- megous 10y ago
  Who cares about income? Profit matters. Societal benefits matter too. How many days of work in a month is required to break even on all the basics of life like rent, food and medical care + retirement insurance.
  - conanbatt 10y ago
    Everything matters, thats why looking at only 1 axis ends up biased. Seeing how people vote with their feet takes everything into account, preferences, income, services, etc. The reality is that the US is a very generous place if you have money, so if you are a software engineer you can have a luxurous life in comparison to what one would get in EU. The situation is opposite for lower paying jobs.
    - megous 10y ago
      Curious. How is it more luxurious? Say I have $2000 extra at the end of the month in EU and in US. Where the difference comes from?
      - conanbatt 10y ago
        You can get a better private education in the us with money that you can for free in europe. College is a great example of free college vs overpriced but ultimately valuable private colleges You could have a much bigger houses as well. If you move to munich or berlin(even though the latter is one of the cheapest cities in europe) a house is really expensive in comparison to what you can get in a city like Austin, Denver, even Seattle if you commute a bit.
  - 10y ago

@lostboys totally agree, but thankful someone is at least offering me more than serf rights

pjmlp 10y ago

From someone that is able to enjoy proper work conditions in socialist Europe, the state of work condition expectations in US is always surprising. Sometimes I get the feeling that even my own country (Portugal), with all its issues regarding work conditions, still appears to be in better shape.

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
De_Delph 10y ago
Hi from socialist Netherlands, where the issues around IP and employers are EXACTLY the same as the US.
- pjmlp 10y ago
  Are they enforceable? I am no lawyer, but I don't expect that under EU work law anything done outside work can be forbidden in the work contract, in any member country. The only issue I see from law point of view, is if whatever is being done, in terms of private projects, is related to knowledge acquired during the work activities, sometimes under NDA. Here yes, there can be issues. Now if the projects are done in technology stacks or business domains completely different from what happens at work, then it isn't enforceable. However I am no lawyer.
- lostboys67 10y ago
  Which of the 52 states is that? Its probably closer to the CA i.e. it has to be related to the employers work not everying.
RhodesianHunter 10y ago
From someone who would give his left leg to work in Europe, but not 4/5 of his salary, enjoy your wins!

chadlavi 10y ago

For real, this should be the norm. Good on GitHub anyway though!

freebs 10y ago

It really is sad. The worst part is, employees are treated poorly at many companies. I feel like it's even worse during and after a recession because employers know people are desperate. I have been working on mplyees.com, a site where employees can share what needs to change publicly and anonymously. Hopefully we can bridge this divide since employee happiness is key to a successful business.

endymi0n 10y ago

I couldn't care less about IP myself - but the real reason this stuff is pretty standard is that investors are somehow really bullish about IP (the "secret sauce"). Against our own beliefs, we decided for pretty strict contract terms around IP as this topic usually turns out to be one of the standard blockers in any funding and exit negotiations. In former companies, after a financing round people had to sign new terms and that can get pretty complicated. That's the real reason things are pretty messed up all around protecting IP. As we've survived without funding so far, we're thinking of relaxing this as well. Kudos to GitHub's investors for staying away from this nonsense.

pdimitar 10y ago
Such offers must be refused. I know it's easier said than done when you have your back against the wall. But turning down such people in favor of those who respect your IP is always the better investment down the line.
lostboys67 10y ago
This is not about trade secrets its about outside work not related to your day job.

conanbatt 10y ago

The real question is how expensive they are. The US has les protections but thus pays a lot more. Soft engineers moving from SF to europe get their income cut by more than 50%. In the end, more europeans move to the Us that the other way around, showing ultimately what the body prefers.

megous 10y ago
Who cares about income? Profit matters. Societal benefits matter too. How many days of work in a month is required to break even on all the basics of life like rent, food and medical care + retirement insurance.
- conanbatt 10y ago
  Everything matters, thats why looking at only 1 axis ends up biased. Seeing how people vote with their feet takes everything into account, preferences, income, services, etc. The reality is that the US is a very generous place if you have money, so if you are a software engineer you can have a luxurous life in comparison to what one would get in EU. The situation is opposite for lower paying jobs.
  - megous 10y ago
    Curious. How is it more luxurious? Say I have $2000 extra at the end of the month in EU and in US. Where the difference comes from?
    - conanbatt 10y ago
      You can get a better private education in the us with money that you can for free in europe. College is a great example of free college vs overpriced but ultimately valuable private colleges You could have a much bigger houses as well. If you move to munich or berlin(even though the latter is one of the cheapest cities in europe) a house is really expensive in comparison to what you can get in a city like Austin, Denver, even Seattle if you commute a bit.
- 10y ago