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People keep complaining about how hard and expensive it is to attract top talent. This kind of measure is exactly how you do it. Provide an environment where em

People keep complaining about how hard and expensive it is to attract top talent. This kind of measure is exactly how you do it. Provide an environment where employees feel trusted and empowered, pay market rate, screen properly instead of having applicants jump through hoops, and you won't have much trouble hiring. Kudos to github for this, I'm impressed!

lostboys67 10y ago
Sad that having even minimal employee rights is some how seen as exceptional.
- misterhtmlcss 10y ago
  @lostboys totally agree, but thankful someone is at least offering me more than serf rights
- pjmlp 10y ago
  From someone that is able to enjoy proper work conditions in socialist Europe, the state of work condition expectations in US is always surprising. Sometimes I get the feeling that even my own country (Portugal), with all its issues regarding work conditions, still appears to be in better shape.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - De_Delph 10y ago
    Hi from socialist Netherlands, where the issues around IP and employers are EXACTLY the same as the US.
    - pjmlp 10y ago
      Are they enforceable? I am no lawyer, but I don't expect that under EU work law anything done outside work can be forbidden in the work contract, in any member country. The only issue I see from law point of view, is if whatever is being done, in terms of private projects, is related to knowledge acquired during the work activities, sometimes under NDA. Here yes, there can be issues. Now if the projects are done in technology stacks or business domains completely different from what happens at work, then it isn't enforceable. However I am no lawyer.
    - lostboys67 10y ago
      Which of the 52 states is that? Its probably closer to the CA i.e. it has to be related to the employers work not everying.
  - RhodesianHunter 10y ago
    From someone who would give his left leg to work in Europe, but not 4/5 of his salary, enjoy your wins!
- chadlavi 10y ago
  For real, this should be the norm. Good on GitHub anyway though!
- freebs 10y ago
  It really is sad. The worst part is, employees are treated poorly at many companies. I feel like it's even worse during and after a recession because employers know people are desperate. I have been working on mplyees.com, a site where employees can share what needs to change publicly and anonymously. Hopefully we can bridge this divide since employee happiness is key to a successful business.
- endymi0n 10y ago
  I couldn't care less about IP myself - but the real reason this stuff is pretty standard is that investors are somehow really bullish about IP (the "secret sauce"). Against our own beliefs, we decided for pretty strict contract terms around IP as this topic usually turns out to be one of the standard blockers in any funding and exit negotiations. In former companies, after a financing round people had to sign new terms and that can get pretty complicated. That's the real reason things are pretty messed up all around protecting IP. As we've survived without funding so far, we're thinking of relaxing this as well. Kudos to GitHub's investors for staying away from this nonsense.
  - pdimitar 10y ago
    Such offers must be refused. I know it's easier said than done when you have your back against the wall. But turning down such people in favor of those who respect your IP is always the better investment down the line.
  - lostboys67 10y ago
    This is not about trade secrets its about outside work not related to your day job.
- conanbatt 10y ago
  The real question is how expensive they are. The US has les protections but thus pays a lot more. Soft engineers moving from SF to europe get their income cut by more than 50%. In the end, more europeans move to the Us that the other way around, showing ultimately what the body prefers.
  - megous 10y ago
    Who cares about income? Profit matters. Societal benefits matter too. How many days of work in a month is required to break even on all the basics of life like rent, food and medical care + retirement insurance.
    - conanbatt 10y ago
      Everything matters, thats why looking at only 1 axis ends up biased. Seeing how people vote with their feet takes everything into account, preferences, income, services, etc. The reality is that the US is a very generous place if you have money, so if you are a software engineer you can have a luxurous life in comparison to what one would get in EU. The situation is opposite for lower paying jobs.
      - megous 10y ago
        Curious. How is it more luxurious? Say I have $2000 extra at the end of the month in EU and in US. Where the difference comes from?
        conanbatt 10y ago
        You can get a better private education in the us with money that you can for free in europe. College is a great example of free college vs overpriced but ultimately valuable private colleges You could have a much bigger houses as well. If you move to munich or berlin(even though the latter is one of the cheapest cities in europe) a house is really expensive in comparison to what you can get in a city like Austin, Denver, even Seattle if you commute a bit.
    - 10y ago
soverance 10y ago
For real. I am an indie game dev who recently released his first big game on Steam. Just a week or two ago I had a prospective company tell me that, in order to hire me, I would need to sell them the entirety of my personally-developed IP and dissolve my interest in my own company. Needless to say, I decided against that job.
- dabber 10y ago
  Wow, I'd lie if I said I wasn't worried I'd someday have to take a job like that. Was this job you applied to in the gaming space? If so, is that type of ask common place in your experience? Also, a bit of an aside. What's the game you released called? I get you probably intended to avoid the plug but I'm curious. Edit: And of course, props to GitHub for this!
  - soverance 10y ago
    Hopefully you'll never have to take a job that asks this of you. Yes, the job in question was in the gaming space, working on an unannounced virtual reality title. This has been the only time a company has ever asked me to divest interest in my own company and/or IP before being hired. Granted, I have only recently begun looking for work, but I cannot imagine this being a common scenario. Instead, I imagine these guys as sharks that do not have my best interests in mind; only their own. As for my game, it's called Ethereal Legends, and is now available on Steam. To bring things back onto the topic of this thread, the code for my game is also available on GitHub! https://github.com/Soverance/EtherealLegends https://github.com/Soverance/EtherealLegends
- charlesdm 10y ago
  And one wonders why they can't hire top talent. One the one hand, they want capable people who go out of their way to achieve results + love their craft. Guess what, that often happens by working on side projects (whether ultimately commercial or not, is irrelevant). As an employee the only concession I would personally be willing to make would be to not compete directly with the company you're employed at. And only if you're not employed at a company doing everything, i.e. a Google or a Microsoft.
throwaway7558 10y ago
I agree--this is excellent and very tech-talent-friendly. As an example on the other side of the spectrum: I work for a very large Silicon Valley company that is well known (you've heard of them) for secrecy and obsessively guarding its IP. Here we can't[1] work on Open Source, work on potential start-up ideas, moonlight writing software for some extra cash, publish (either academically or releasing software online, app stores or web), or really do anything substantial regarding software outside of work. On personal time, weekends, on our own equipment, doesn't matter. It's a serious drawback, to the point where I've been actively looking around. I'm certain this will have an extremely positive effect on GitHub's attractiveness as an employer. 1: Technically, the policy is "ask your manager" but everyone knows what the answer is.
- vonmoltke 10y ago
  At least your policy is limited to software-related things. I need to ask permission to start a side gig selling shit on eBay, submit a fiction story to a writing contest, or even volunteer for mentoring/tutoring sessions (on any topic). I didn't know the full extent before I started, but they threw more money at me than my wife and I have ever made combined, so I probably would have still taken it if I had known. Plus, I'm in NYC now.
- BuuQu9hu 10y ago
  Your employer, of course, is Google; I know this from my own tussles with Google's OSPO, which exists primarily to ensure that engineers don't have lives outside of Google.
  - vonmoltke 10y ago
    I have not gone through them yet, but I get the feeling from the wording of our policies that our equivalent is similar.
  - rrdharan 10y ago
    [Disclaimer: I work at Google.] I see no conclusive evidence in the parent comment that proves it's Google. I would've actually guessed Apple. My understanding is that Google actually has a reasonable process for this, and that people have taken advantage of it to start or contribute to projects in a personal capacity.
eloff 10y ago
I turned down a job with IBM once they told me, after appeal, that they would own my side project if I continued to work on it. The interview process cost me 40 hours and an all-nighter take home (I really needed the job.) The salary was fantastic for Canada, but still pathetic by US standards.
munificent 10y ago
One of the main reasons I left EA was because I wasn't working on games I was interested at work, and couldn't work on them in my spare time either. My job in the game industry got in the way of me making games.

lostboys67 10y ago

Sad that having even minimal employee rights is some how seen as exceptional.

misterhtmlcss 10y ago
@lostboys totally agree, but thankful someone is at least offering me more than serf rights
pjmlp 10y ago
From someone that is able to enjoy proper work conditions in socialist Europe, the state of work condition expectations in US is always surprising. Sometimes I get the feeling that even my own country (Portugal), with all its issues regarding work conditions, still appears to be in better shape.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- De_Delph 10y ago
  Hi from socialist Netherlands, where the issues around IP and employers are EXACTLY the same as the US.
  - pjmlp 10y ago
    Are they enforceable? I am no lawyer, but I don't expect that under EU work law anything done outside work can be forbidden in the work contract, in any member country. The only issue I see from law point of view, is if whatever is being done, in terms of private projects, is related to knowledge acquired during the work activities, sometimes under NDA. Here yes, there can be issues. Now if the projects are done in technology stacks or business domains completely different from what happens at work, then it isn't enforceable. However I am no lawyer.
  - lostboys67 10y ago
    Which of the 52 states is that? Its probably closer to the CA i.e. it has to be related to the employers work not everying.
- RhodesianHunter 10y ago
  From someone who would give his left leg to work in Europe, but not 4/5 of his salary, enjoy your wins!
chadlavi 10y ago
For real, this should be the norm. Good on GitHub anyway though!
freebs 10y ago
It really is sad. The worst part is, employees are treated poorly at many companies. I feel like it's even worse during and after a recession because employers know people are desperate. I have been working on mplyees.com, a site where employees can share what needs to change publicly and anonymously. Hopefully we can bridge this divide since employee happiness is key to a successful business.
endymi0n 10y ago
I couldn't care less about IP myself - but the real reason this stuff is pretty standard is that investors are somehow really bullish about IP (the "secret sauce"). Against our own beliefs, we decided for pretty strict contract terms around IP as this topic usually turns out to be one of the standard blockers in any funding and exit negotiations. In former companies, after a financing round people had to sign new terms and that can get pretty complicated. That's the real reason things are pretty messed up all around protecting IP. As we've survived without funding so far, we're thinking of relaxing this as well. Kudos to GitHub's investors for staying away from this nonsense.
- pdimitar 10y ago
  Such offers must be refused. I know it's easier said than done when you have your back against the wall. But turning down such people in favor of those who respect your IP is always the better investment down the line.
- lostboys67 10y ago
  This is not about trade secrets its about outside work not related to your day job.
conanbatt 10y ago
The real question is how expensive they are. The US has les protections but thus pays a lot more. Soft engineers moving from SF to europe get their income cut by more than 50%. In the end, more europeans move to the Us that the other way around, showing ultimately what the body prefers.
- megous 10y ago
  Who cares about income? Profit matters. Societal benefits matter too. How many days of work in a month is required to break even on all the basics of life like rent, food and medical care + retirement insurance.
  - conanbatt 10y ago
    Everything matters, thats why looking at only 1 axis ends up biased. Seeing how people vote with their feet takes everything into account, preferences, income, services, etc. The reality is that the US is a very generous place if you have money, so if you are a software engineer you can have a luxurous life in comparison to what one would get in EU. The situation is opposite for lower paying jobs.
    - megous 10y ago
      Curious. How is it more luxurious? Say I have $2000 extra at the end of the month in EU and in US. Where the difference comes from?
      - conanbatt 10y ago
        You can get a better private education in the us with money that you can for free in europe. College is a great example of free college vs overpriced but ultimately valuable private colleges You could have a much bigger houses as well. If you move to munich or berlin(even though the latter is one of the cheapest cities in europe) a house is really expensive in comparison to what you can get in a city like Austin, Denver, even Seattle if you commute a bit.
  - 10y ago

soverance 10y ago

For real. I am an indie game dev who recently released his first big game on Steam. Just a week or two ago I had a prospective company tell me that, in order to hire me, I would need to sell them the entirety of my personally-developed IP and dissolve my interest in my own company. Needless to say, I decided against that job.

dabber 10y ago
Wow, I'd lie if I said I wasn't worried I'd someday have to take a job like that. Was this job you applied to in the gaming space? If so, is that type of ask common place in your experience? Also, a bit of an aside. What's the game you released called? I get you probably intended to avoid the plug but I'm curious. Edit: And of course, props to GitHub for this!
- soverance 10y ago
  Hopefully you'll never have to take a job that asks this of you. Yes, the job in question was in the gaming space, working on an unannounced virtual reality title. This has been the only time a company has ever asked me to divest interest in my own company and/or IP before being hired. Granted, I have only recently begun looking for work, but I cannot imagine this being a common scenario. Instead, I imagine these guys as sharks that do not have my best interests in mind; only their own. As for my game, it's called Ethereal Legends, and is now available on Steam. To bring things back onto the topic of this thread, the code for my game is also available on GitHub! https://github.com/Soverance/EtherealLegends https://github.com/Soverance/EtherealLegends
charlesdm 10y ago
And one wonders why they can't hire top talent. One the one hand, they want capable people who go out of their way to achieve results + love their craft. Guess what, that often happens by working on side projects (whether ultimately commercial or not, is irrelevant). As an employee the only concession I would personally be willing to make would be to not compete directly with the company you're employed at. And only if you're not employed at a company doing everything, i.e. a Google or a Microsoft.

throwaway7558 10y ago

I agree--this is excellent and very tech-talent-friendly. As an example on the other side of the spectrum: I work for a very large Silicon Valley company that is well known (you've heard of them) for secrecy and obsessively guarding its IP. Here we can't[1] work on Open Source, work on potential start-up ideas, moonlight writing software for some extra cash, publish (either academically or releasing software online, app stores or web), or really do anything substantial regarding software outside of work. On personal time, weekends, on our own equipment, doesn't matter. It's a serious drawback, to the point where I've been actively looking around. I'm certain this will have an extremely positive effect on GitHub's attractiveness as an employer. 1: Technically, the policy is "ask your manager" but everyone knows what the answer is.

vonmoltke 10y ago
At least your policy is limited to software-related things. I need to ask permission to start a side gig selling shit on eBay, submit a fiction story to a writing contest, or even volunteer for mentoring/tutoring sessions (on any topic). I didn't know the full extent before I started, but they threw more money at me than my wife and I have ever made combined, so I probably would have still taken it if I had known. Plus, I'm in NYC now.
BuuQu9hu 10y ago
Your employer, of course, is Google; I know this from my own tussles with Google's OSPO, which exists primarily to ensure that engineers don't have lives outside of Google.
- vonmoltke 10y ago
  I have not gone through them yet, but I get the feeling from the wording of our policies that our equivalent is similar.
- rrdharan 10y ago
  [Disclaimer: I work at Google.] I see no conclusive evidence in the parent comment that proves it's Google. I would've actually guessed Apple. My understanding is that Google actually has a reasonable process for this, and that people have taken advantage of it to start or contribute to projects in a personal capacity.

eloff 10y ago

I turned down a job with IBM once they told me, after appeal, that they would own my side project if I continued to work on it. The interview process cost me 40 hours and an all-nighter take home (I really needed the job.) The salary was fantastic for Canada, but still pathetic by US standards.

munificent 10y ago

One of the main reasons I left EA was because I wasn't working on games I was interested at work, and couldn't work on them in my spare time either. My job in the game industry got in the way of me making games.