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Undertale? The Stanley Parable? Doom? Bloodborne? It's quite hard to come up with nominees for consideration as 'Sublime Art'. It seems so hard to really find

Undertale? The Stanley Parable? Doom? Bloodborne? It's quite hard to come up with nominees for consideration as 'Sublime Art'. It seems so hard to really find the difference between "Sublime Art" and "A Really Good Game" The end bit of the article states: "But when I feel the need for reflection, for insight, wisdom or consolation, I turn my computers off. These needs are the ambit of the sublime arts, which are inspired and informed by philosophy, and by faith." But this immediately brings my mind to games like Proteus, No Man's Sky, or Breath of the Wild.

cholantesh 10y ago
I think that, if Doom 2016 wasn't so checklist bound, it'd qualify as sublime art - it's the best answer I've seen to the question "What would Aliens look like if it were a video game?" LeChuck's Revenge is up there, too, IMO - both versions.
- Jtsummers 10y ago
  I haven't played that version of Doom. But I have to ask, is Aliens sublime art?
  - cholantesh 10y ago
    I presumed that that was the version which GP was referring to because the other ones are also dated to 2016. And I chose to mention it because Ebert rated Aliens highly, at 3.5/4. In retrospect, that may not qualify it as sublime art as opposed to a really good film. I'd have to refresh my memory of Ebert's scale.
    - shuntress 10y ago
      I was actually trying to tacitly refer to both the original and 2016 version because they both can apply to this discussion for different reasons. I think my main take away from 2016 is that it is nearly flawless execution of an equally well-understood concept with an attention to detail that can rival anything to which it may be compared. What I actually consider most impressive about the original is the marvelous ingenuity of its 'construction' which I think is more deserving of comparison to architecture than film.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
Jtsummers 10y ago
> And it's so hard to really split the difference between "Sublime Art" and "A Really Good Game" Is it? What makes a "really good game"? Most would agree that a game like SimCity or Half-Life (original) are really good games. Few would argue that either of them are sublime art.
- shuntress 10y ago
  I agree that there are examples, such as the ones you propose, of games that are widely regarded as "A Really Good Game" while clearly being a long stretch from "Sublime Art". What I intended to get across was that there are other examples that I do not find so clear cut. Such as the 4 examples I gave. I can't tell if I would propose these as examples of "Games As Sublime Art" because they possess qualities deserving of that title or if they are simply tricking me by being very good games.
- xigency 10y ago
  Art is up to taste, so as a critic it's easier to recognize something as art that maybe you don't partake or enjoy, like post-modern literature, Jackson Pollock paintings, or anti-art, than to fail to recognize it at all. That is what makes Roger Ebert's argument weak. The best example of sublime art in a game would be Myst. Outside of that minor examples might be The Stanley Parable, Half-Life 2, or Façade. If there are a few examples of video games as sublime art, then I think that establishes the medium as art. The movie Doom is abysmal, and yet the late Roger Ebert would put that on a higher plane than these great examples? That seems irrational. I think the greatest issue is with the video game work that Roger Ebert was exposed to. If you had never listened to music in your life and only read books and seen paintings, and then you were introduced to pop radio or a host of folk death metal albums, you might have the same reaction as he had had to video games: seeing that music is an inferior form, merely an amusement rather than art, instead of seeing that certain genres are more crude than the level of sophistication enjoyed in his books or paintings. Being surrounded by the most popular or violent collections of medium aren't encouraging in the way that seeing an instance of sublime art would be. The examples that Kellee Santiago gave were really independent renaissance games, which are often minimalistic or contain subtle elements. Instead of an example of an epic like the Iliad or Lawrence of Arabia, they are a short story, of any quality. And just as Roger Ebert did not live in a vacuum and had certainly seen video games played in movies, he has obviously seen them develop from the very beginning. The examples of early arcade games are like simple drum signals compared to a symphony. It might be that he just missed out on what might have been a great artistic experience.
MattRix 10y ago
It's been said a lot of times before, but I think Braid and The Witness are both pretty clearly examples of sublime art.
BorgHunter 10y ago
Brothers: A Tale of Two Sons qualifies, I think. There's one particular moment in that game--everyone who's played it all the way through will know, and I will not spoil it--which is emotionally powerful, and absolutely could not have been made in any other medium.
- wtallis 10y ago
  Brothers is a great example. It's not particularly special as a game: the puzzles and plot are relatively simple and generic. But the game's mechanics create an experience that cannot be matched in any non-interactive medium.
- btschaegg 10y ago
  Agreed. What I find amazing about that moment is that from any "conservative" perspective, it's really nothing special - but the mechanical bond the game has built up with the player until then amplifies its effect. It is a very good example showing that you can still use much of a medium's inherit aspects to great effect even without deviating much from the norm. On a related note: I wonder if John Cage's 4'33" qualifies as art... ;-)
vacri 10y ago
You're conflating 'art' with 'artful'. There's all sorts of artless trash adorning the walls of galleries, but it's still 'art'. 'art' has a really low bar for entry. A doodle you make whilst on the phone is 'art'. All video games are art. Not all video games are artful.
- shuntress 10y ago
  I do see how easy it can be to conflate 'art' with 'artful' but I intentionally have used the phrase 'Sublime Art' to mean 'artful' or '(Capital A) Art' in an attempt to avoid this confusion. The topic of discussion is the idea that NO video game can EVER BE 'artful'.

cholantesh 10y ago

I think that, if Doom 2016 wasn't so checklist bound, it'd qualify as sublime art - it's the best answer I've seen to the question "What would Aliens look like if it were a video game?" LeChuck's Revenge is up there, too, IMO - both versions.

Jtsummers 10y ago
I haven't played that version of Doom. But I have to ask, is Aliens sublime art?
- cholantesh 10y ago
  I presumed that that was the version which GP was referring to because the other ones are also dated to 2016. And I chose to mention it because Ebert rated Aliens highly, at 3.5/4. In retrospect, that may not qualify it as sublime art as opposed to a really good film. I'd have to refresh my memory of Ebert's scale.
  - shuntress 10y ago
    I was actually trying to tacitly refer to both the original and 2016 version because they both can apply to this discussion for different reasons. I think my main take away from 2016 is that it is nearly flawless execution of an equally well-understood concept with an attention to detail that can rival anything to which it may be compared. What I actually consider most impressive about the original is the marvelous ingenuity of its 'construction' which I think is more deserving of comparison to architecture than film.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]

Jtsummers 10y ago

> And it's so hard to really split the difference between "Sublime Art" and "A Really Good Game" Is it? What makes a "really good game"? Most would agree that a game like SimCity or Half-Life (original) are really good games. Few would argue that either of them are sublime art.

shuntress 10y ago
I agree that there are examples, such as the ones you propose, of games that are widely regarded as "A Really Good Game" while clearly being a long stretch from "Sublime Art". What I intended to get across was that there are other examples that I do not find so clear cut. Such as the 4 examples I gave. I can't tell if I would propose these as examples of "Games As Sublime Art" because they possess qualities deserving of that title or if they are simply tricking me by being very good games.
xigency 10y ago
Art is up to taste, so as a critic it's easier to recognize something as art that maybe you don't partake or enjoy, like post-modern literature, Jackson Pollock paintings, or anti-art, than to fail to recognize it at all. That is what makes Roger Ebert's argument weak. The best example of sublime art in a game would be Myst. Outside of that minor examples might be The Stanley Parable, Half-Life 2, or Façade. If there are a few examples of video games as sublime art, then I think that establishes the medium as art. The movie Doom is abysmal, and yet the late Roger Ebert would put that on a higher plane than these great examples? That seems irrational. I think the greatest issue is with the video game work that Roger Ebert was exposed to. If you had never listened to music in your life and only read books and seen paintings, and then you were introduced to pop radio or a host of folk death metal albums, you might have the same reaction as he had had to video games: seeing that music is an inferior form, merely an amusement rather than art, instead of seeing that certain genres are more crude than the level of sophistication enjoyed in his books or paintings. Being surrounded by the most popular or violent collections of medium aren't encouraging in the way that seeing an instance of sublime art would be. The examples that Kellee Santiago gave were really independent renaissance games, which are often minimalistic or contain subtle elements. Instead of an example of an epic like the Iliad or Lawrence of Arabia, they are a short story, of any quality. And just as Roger Ebert did not live in a vacuum and had certainly seen video games played in movies, he has obviously seen them develop from the very beginning. The examples of early arcade games are like simple drum signals compared to a symphony. It might be that he just missed out on what might have been a great artistic experience.

MattRix 10y ago

It's been said a lot of times before, but I think Braid and The Witness are both pretty clearly examples of sublime art.

BorgHunter 10y ago

Brothers: A Tale of Two Sons qualifies, I think. There's one particular moment in that game--everyone who's played it all the way through will know, and I will not spoil it--which is emotionally powerful, and absolutely could not have been made in any other medium.

wtallis 10y ago
Brothers is a great example. It's not particularly special as a game: the puzzles and plot are relatively simple and generic. But the game's mechanics create an experience that cannot be matched in any non-interactive medium.
btschaegg 10y ago
Agreed. What I find amazing about that moment is that from any "conservative" perspective, it's really nothing special - but the mechanical bond the game has built up with the player until then amplifies its effect. It is a very good example showing that you can still use much of a medium's inherit aspects to great effect even without deviating much from the norm. On a related note: I wonder if John Cage's 4'33" qualifies as art... ;-)

vacri 10y ago

You're conflating 'art' with 'artful'. There's all sorts of artless trash adorning the walls of galleries, but it's still 'art'. 'art' has a really low bar for entry. A doodle you make whilst on the phone is 'art'. All video games are art. Not all video games are artful.

shuntress 10y ago
I do see how easy it can be to conflate 'art' with 'artful' but I intentionally have used the phrase 'Sublime Art' to mean 'artful' or '(Capital A) Art' in an attempt to avoid this confusion. The topic of discussion is the idea that NO video game can EVER BE 'artful'.