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Over a long period of time? Why not. America is nearly 100% immigrants.

bordercases 10y ago
Most of them were White Christians for the longest time. Are people of that even temperament that you can't see differences between them?
- unityByFreedom 10y ago
  Certainly I see differences in people's culture. I don't damn them for it.
  - bordercases 10y ago
    One can move for economic opportunities or cultural opportunities. The two can co-occur but they are different needs. If we're talking about integration of Muslims, the ones who aren't soft on their own beliefs, i.e. not raised in the cosmopolitan West, are likely moving simply for economic opportunity or to avoid danger, not necessarily because they like the West. Given that in most countries that are purely Muslim have reason to resent the West and see their struggle as being in part ideological, as Western materialist culture is antithetical to Islamic theocracy, should we not be a little bit wary? I don't think culture is the only variable, but even if it was, there is still cause for concern.
Exofunctor 10y ago
> Why not. Because Europe is liberal, secular, literate, and (consequently) scientifically, technologically, and economically advanced. Africa is none of those things. Whatever your ideals about equality are, you cannot deny that there is something about Africans, whether it's their cultures or their religions or their DNA or some other factor. (In case you reflexively want to accuse me of racism for that last possible cause, if you'd like I can break out the list of high-quality scientific publications demonstrating that intelligence and certain measurable behaviors have been demonstrated to be strongly heritable and that those genes differ substantially across geographically separated populations.) No matter the cause, Europe can not hope to sustain its preeminence in these matters if it gets blasted full of people who are culturally antithetical to them. You can't hope to have a functioning scientific community if certain ascientific beliefs are legally mandated, for example. The simplest explanation for why America is successful in the exact same way as Europe is that all the people who colonized North America come from Europe, and share whatever European je ne sais quoi is conducive to that success, whether it's cultural, religious, genetic, or any other heritable condition. I'm fairly sure this post will be shocking to you and you'll react angrily to it, but I ask you to just take a moment to consider where you think my argument falls apart factually rather than just automatically labelling it as "colonialist" or "xenophobic" or something and then completely ignoring its contents. The fact of the matter is that Africa really sucks and is really backwards, whereas Europe doesn't and isn't, and when people move somewhere they take a little bit of where they came from with them. Do you really think America would be the same, in any respect, as it is today if it was never settled by Europeans?
- tptacek 10y ago
  One wonders what it could be about Africans that enabled Europeans to progress so far past them in the 19th and 20th centuries. Perhaps it's their cultures, or their religions, or their DNA, but something sure painted a bulls-eye on the backs of all those people. The French, the British, the Germans, even --- christ, especially --- the Belgians. We in the US have little trouble acknowledging the legacy of slavery in our country. That happened over a century ago. Rwanda didn't gain independence from Belgium, which engineered the sectarian divisions that produced the Rwandan genocide, until 1961. Apartheid didn't end in South Africa until the nineteen nineties. It takes some kind of --something--- to suggest that the Europeans have something to fear from the Africans.
- pvg 10y ago
  The simplest explanation for why America is successful [...] where you think my argument falls apart factually It doesn't even come together factually, let alone fall apart. The same exact things were said of the Italians, Jews, Poles, Irish and many others that poured into the US. Far worse of immigrants from East Asia. Entirely inexplicably, the country thrived and continues to do so.
  - aptwebapps 10y ago
    "The same exact things were said of the Italians, Jews, Poles, Irish and many others that poured into the US." This bears repeating. Exactly the same arguments were advanced by (otherwise) fairly intelligent people about whichever was the latest group. Those arguments were wrong, and this argument is wrong.
    - Exofunctor 10y ago
      Do you think Italian Catholics are as violent or as memetically aggressive as Muslims from the ME?
  - Exofunctor 10y ago
    > The same exact things were said of the Italians, Jews, Poles, Irish and many others that poured into the US. First off, they were right about all these groups in one way or another. Italians were responsible for a huge and disproportionate fraction of east coast crime for decades, Jews are represented in politics at around an order of magnitude higher than their fraction of the population, polish communities (just like Poland) have huge problems with crime and drug abuse, and Irish communities are still getting over problems with poverty, alcoholism, and church abuses. The complaints levied against these groups were entirely correct, and these groups did culturally subsume large areas, as predicted. I say this as a descendent of 3 of those 4 groups. Second off, you can't really compare hyper-indoctrinated muslims to the Italians. Catholicism is positively benign compared to any of the popular Islamic sects. Just because something vaguely similar happened before doesn't mean it's going to happen exactly the same way again. > Entirely inexplicably, the country thrived and continues to do so. Compared to what? I suspect if the Irish hadn't shitted up the east coast for decades America could be a lot farther ahead. (Again, saying this as someone who is substantially Irish.) Yes, we turned out OK, and the shitty culture that Irish and Polish people brought over with them has mostly been diluted to impotency, but who knows what the damage was, or how it's going to go down with an even shittier and more viral culture. At least the Irish didn't make a habit of stoning people to death.

Most of them were White Christians for the longest time. Are people of that even temperament that you can't see differences between them?

unityByFreedom 10y ago
Certainly I see differences in people's culture. I don't damn them for it.
- bordercases 10y ago
  One can move for economic opportunities or cultural opportunities. The two can co-occur but they are different needs. If we're talking about integration of Muslims, the ones who aren't soft on their own beliefs, i.e. not raised in the cosmopolitan West, are likely moving simply for economic opportunity or to avoid danger, not necessarily because they like the West. Given that in most countries that are purely Muslim have reason to resent the West and see their struggle as being in part ideological, as Western materialist culture is antithetical to Islamic theocracy, should we not be a little bit wary? I don't think culture is the only variable, but even if it was, there is still cause for concern.

Exofunctor 10y ago

> Why not. Because Europe is liberal, secular, literate, and (consequently) scientifically, technologically, and economically advanced. Africa is none of those things. Whatever your ideals about equality are, you cannot deny that there is something about Africans, whether it's their cultures or their religions or their DNA or some other factor. (In case you reflexively want to accuse me of racism for that last possible cause, if you'd like I can break out the list of high-quality scientific publications demonstrating that intelligence and certain measurable behaviors have been demonstrated to be strongly heritable and that those genes differ substantially across geographically separated populations.) No matter the cause, Europe can not hope to sustain its preeminence in these matters if it gets blasted full of people who are culturally antithetical to them. You can't hope to have a functioning scientific community if certain ascientific beliefs are legally mandated, for example. The simplest explanation for why America is successful in the exact same way as Europe is that all the people who colonized North America come from Europe, and share whatever European je ne sais quoi is conducive to that success, whether it's cultural, religious, genetic, or any other heritable condition. I'm fairly sure this post will be shocking to you and you'll react angrily to it, but I ask you to just take a moment to consider where you think my argument falls apart factually rather than just automatically labelling it as "colonialist" or "xenophobic" or something and then completely ignoring its contents. The fact of the matter is that Africa really sucks and is really backwards, whereas Europe doesn't and isn't, and when people move somewhere they take a little bit of where they came from with them. Do you really think America would be the same, in any respect, as it is today if it was never settled by Europeans?

tptacek 10y ago
One wonders what it could be about Africans that enabled Europeans to progress so far past them in the 19th and 20th centuries. Perhaps it's their cultures, or their religions, or their DNA, but something sure painted a bulls-eye on the backs of all those people. The French, the British, the Germans, even --- christ, especially --- the Belgians. We in the US have little trouble acknowledging the legacy of slavery in our country. That happened over a century ago. Rwanda didn't gain independence from Belgium, which engineered the sectarian divisions that produced the Rwandan genocide, until 1961. Apartheid didn't end in South Africa until the nineteen nineties. It takes some kind of --something--- to suggest that the Europeans have something to fear from the Africans.
pvg 10y ago
The simplest explanation for why America is successful [...] where you think my argument falls apart factually It doesn't even come together factually, let alone fall apart. The same exact things were said of the Italians, Jews, Poles, Irish and many others that poured into the US. Far worse of immigrants from East Asia. Entirely inexplicably, the country thrived and continues to do so.
- aptwebapps 10y ago
  "The same exact things were said of the Italians, Jews, Poles, Irish and many others that poured into the US." This bears repeating. Exactly the same arguments were advanced by (otherwise) fairly intelligent people about whichever was the latest group. Those arguments were wrong, and this argument is wrong.
  - Exofunctor 10y ago
    Do you think Italian Catholics are as violent or as memetically aggressive as Muslims from the ME?
- Exofunctor 10y ago
  > The same exact things were said of the Italians, Jews, Poles, Irish and many others that poured into the US. First off, they were right about all these groups in one way or another. Italians were responsible for a huge and disproportionate fraction of east coast crime for decades, Jews are represented in politics at around an order of magnitude higher than their fraction of the population, polish communities (just like Poland) have huge problems with crime and drug abuse, and Irish communities are still getting over problems with poverty, alcoholism, and church abuses. The complaints levied against these groups were entirely correct, and these groups did culturally subsume large areas, as predicted. I say this as a descendent of 3 of those 4 groups. Second off, you can't really compare hyper-indoctrinated muslims to the Italians. Catholicism is positively benign compared to any of the popular Islamic sects. Just because something vaguely similar happened before doesn't mean it's going to happen exactly the same way again. > Entirely inexplicably, the country thrived and continues to do so. Compared to what? I suspect if the Irish hadn't shitted up the east coast for decades America could be a lot farther ahead. (Again, saying this as someone who is substantially Irish.) Yes, we turned out OK, and the shitty culture that Irish and Polish people brought over with them has mostly been diluted to impotency, but who knows what the damage was, or how it's going to go down with an even shittier and more viral culture. At least the Irish didn't make a habit of stoning people to death.