4 ms·

i agree, culture is important. but, how much money is it worth? is it worth 20k? 50k? 200k? on the flip side, not all of us are brilliant alpha programmers wi

i agree, culture is important. but, how much money is it worth? is it worth 20k? 50k? 200k? on the flip side, not all of us are brilliant alpha programmers with entrepreneur-class egos. the labor-class parents of one of my best friends are incredibly proud of his BigCo software job, and BigCos don't hire without a degree. The cynic in me wants to call a [software] degree an average person's investment.

jrockway 16y ago
What BigCos don't hire without degrees? I know people at Google and Microsoft without a degree. I work for a giant corporation, without a degree.
- hga 16y ago
  Lucent in theory didn't, although that was a result of their union contracts which required people not covered by them to have college degrees. This seriously screwed over the undegreed Ascend employees after the acquisition; anything that might bring them to the attention of the union like putting them in for a promotion risked a grievance (or whatever) filing that Lucent would lose. Companies that do contracting work for the Federal government generally need to hire people with degrees, and that's probably generally to universally true for consulting companies in general, where they're selling appearances to get their foot into the door.
- sliverstorm 16y ago
  That brings up the question; when did they get into the industry? Back when there was no such thing as a Computer Science degree, you of course didn't need one to get a job as a programmer I'm sure there are some people still who get into Google and Microsoft with no work experience or degree, but I suspect that number was higher when these things were new and all. I also suspect a good number of the people you were thinking of when you made that post had good work experience to help them land the job.
  - deleted 16y ago
    [deleted]
  - lsc 16y ago
    you need work experience /or/ a degree. If you have neither, you must first do the job you want for the pay you are qualified for. I spent several years doing computer work while earning a McDonalds wage. (I got lucky, and was able to dramatically shorten this period of time because, well, it was dot-com time, and I could spell C.) As far as I can tell, though, requirements for degrees at BigCo type jobs are becoming less stringent, not more stringent. (again, I emphasize, this is only for people with work experience. BigCo is usually not the place to do the skilled work at unskilled wages.) My understanding is that in my father's day, it was /much/ more difficult to get in without a degree. Sure, the degree was in math or business (my stepfather has a degree that sounds like a business degree but that actually was one of the early computer degrees.) or something other than computer science, but my understanding was that degrees were more required then than they are now.
    - ig1 16y ago
      It's incredibly hard to get that work experience without a degree. Why would a company hire someone without experience or CS degree for a programming job when they could hire someone with a CS degree for only a marginal amount of extra money ?
      - lsc 16y ago
        It wasn't particularly difficult for me, and I don't think I'm particularly exceptional. I was working phone support for nine bucks an hour; as soon as the boss noticed I was a passable C and Perl programmer, I got my programming job. (It was a while longer before I got paid like a programmer... but my point is that if you have the skills, and if you are willing to work for below-market wages, it's not too difficult to get the experience.)
- tl 16y ago
  I'd say nearly every company whose focus isn't software (they employ more programmers than software companies and they use the degree as a screening tool).
  - jrockway 16y ago
    All I know is that we pay near the top of the industry, and we can't find any programmers. If there were some massive influx of programmers, then a degree might be a good weed-out tool. But the reality is that most people we interview barely get past "write a function to reverse a string", and beggars can't be choosers. Have you written a computer program on your own before? You're hired. (I am exaggerating a little, but there is a shortage of programmers.)
- nzmsv 16y ago
  I recently saw a posting at Altera which said they required a full transcript for anyone with less than 8 years of work experience. Needless to say, I did not apply.
  - nostrademons 16y ago
    Job postings (and HR reps) often lie. Google claimed they needed a full transcript for anyone with less than 5 years of experience, I said "Sure, but it'll take 2 weeks to arrive, and my other offer is getting antsy", and they promptly forgot about it. It's usually better to apply anyway and let folks reject you if they really don't like what they see, rather than taking job postings literally. They're really just guidelines.
    - lsc 16y ago
      > It's usually better to apply anyway and let folks reject you if they really don't like what they see, rather than taking job postings literally. They're really just guidelines. this is key. It has been probably 13 years since I've had a job that didn't require a college degree in a related field.
- dustingetz 16y ago
  fwiw, google and microsoft are in the top 10 BigCos for software people. Lets focus on 11-1000.

jrockway 16y ago

What BigCos don't hire without degrees? I know people at Google and Microsoft without a degree. I work for a giant corporation, without a degree.

hga 16y ago
Lucent in theory didn't, although that was a result of their union contracts which required people not covered by them to have college degrees. This seriously screwed over the undegreed Ascend employees after the acquisition; anything that might bring them to the attention of the union like putting them in for a promotion risked a grievance (or whatever) filing that Lucent would lose. Companies that do contracting work for the Federal government generally need to hire people with degrees, and that's probably generally to universally true for consulting companies in general, where they're selling appearances to get their foot into the door.
sliverstorm 16y ago
That brings up the question; when did they get into the industry? Back when there was no such thing as a Computer Science degree, you of course didn't need one to get a job as a programmer I'm sure there are some people still who get into Google and Microsoft with no work experience or degree, but I suspect that number was higher when these things were new and all. I also suspect a good number of the people you were thinking of when you made that post had good work experience to help them land the job.
- deleted 16y ago
  [deleted]
- lsc 16y ago
  you need work experience /or/ a degree. If you have neither, you must first do the job you want for the pay you are qualified for. I spent several years doing computer work while earning a McDonalds wage. (I got lucky, and was able to dramatically shorten this period of time because, well, it was dot-com time, and I could spell C.) As far as I can tell, though, requirements for degrees at BigCo type jobs are becoming less stringent, not more stringent. (again, I emphasize, this is only for people with work experience. BigCo is usually not the place to do the skilled work at unskilled wages.) My understanding is that in my father's day, it was /much/ more difficult to get in without a degree. Sure, the degree was in math or business (my stepfather has a degree that sounds like a business degree but that actually was one of the early computer degrees.) or something other than computer science, but my understanding was that degrees were more required then than they are now.
  - ig1 16y ago
    It's incredibly hard to get that work experience without a degree. Why would a company hire someone without experience or CS degree for a programming job when they could hire someone with a CS degree for only a marginal amount of extra money ?
    - lsc 16y ago
      It wasn't particularly difficult for me, and I don't think I'm particularly exceptional. I was working phone support for nine bucks an hour; as soon as the boss noticed I was a passable C and Perl programmer, I got my programming job. (It was a while longer before I got paid like a programmer... but my point is that if you have the skills, and if you are willing to work for below-market wages, it's not too difficult to get the experience.)
tl 16y ago
I'd say nearly every company whose focus isn't software (they employ more programmers than software companies and they use the degree as a screening tool).
- jrockway 16y ago
  All I know is that we pay near the top of the industry, and we can't find any programmers. If there were some massive influx of programmers, then a degree might be a good weed-out tool. But the reality is that most people we interview barely get past "write a function to reverse a string", and beggars can't be choosers. Have you written a computer program on your own before? You're hired. (I am exaggerating a little, but there is a shortage of programmers.)
nzmsv 16y ago
I recently saw a posting at Altera which said they required a full transcript for anyone with less than 8 years of work experience. Needless to say, I did not apply.
- nostrademons 16y ago
  Job postings (and HR reps) often lie. Google claimed they needed a full transcript for anyone with less than 5 years of experience, I said "Sure, but it'll take 2 weeks to arrive, and my other offer is getting antsy", and they promptly forgot about it. It's usually better to apply anyway and let folks reject you if they really don't like what they see, rather than taking job postings literally. They're really just guidelines.
  - lsc 16y ago
    > It's usually better to apply anyway and let folks reject you if they really don't like what they see, rather than taking job postings literally. They're really just guidelines. this is key. It has been probably 13 years since I've had a job that didn't require a college degree in a related field.
dustingetz 16y ago
fwiw, google and microsoft are in the top 10 BigCos for software people. Lets focus on 11-1000.