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I have to disagree with this premise as it pertains to automobile engines. Automobile engines have improved tremendously in "lifespan" or Time Before OverHaul.

I have to disagree with this premise as it pertains to automobile engines. Automobile engines have improved tremendously in "lifespan" or Time Before OverHaul. In the '70's and '80's it was a challenge to get an engine to last 100,000 miles. They needed frequent oil changes, spark plugs replaced, had other short-life wearable parts (ignition parts), water pumps to replace, fuel pumps to replace, alternators went bad, oil leaks (rope seal packing), etc. In the early '90's some real improvements began to become apparent. Now cars routinely make it past 100,000 mi without replacing any of that stuff, and while producing more power per unit of displacement.

Cthulhu_ 10y ago
This is why I'm rather afraid of Tesla and their batteries - you know batteries, whether intentional or not, only last for about 1000 charge cycles, or in the case of Tesla for about 7-10 years, before they have to be replaced - which won't be cheap. This will be an Issue that will be highlighted very soon. We'll see a huge devaluation in secondhand Tesla cars, since replacing the battery will be more expensive than replacing an engine in a car (I believe), plus it'll have to be done every ten years - while a car can keep the same engine for decades, especially when some of the wearables like timing belts and seals and such are replaced. I hope Tesla will recognise this too and do something about it - battery replacement programs, preferably where they can replace batteries with higher-capacity ones as time goes by. I don't see how owning a car in full can work for electric cars, not when the battery needs to be replaced every ten years. I don't know what the lifespan of the drive unit is either.
- steven777400 10y ago
  I'd like to know more about this too, and how Tesla and other companies plan to address it. I'm particularly concerned about the potential environmental impact of dumping a bunch of batteries into landfills. Is there a battery reburishment/recycling program for these vehicles?
  - mywittyname 10y ago
    Yeah, they are high 90s% recyclable, depending on the technology.
  - JeffL 10y ago
    Tesla's battery recycling program sounds pretty impressive, and the cost of new batteries is lower every year. https://www.tesla.com/blog/teslas-closed-loop-battery-recycling-program https://www.tesla.com/blog/teslas-closed-loop-battery-recycl...
  - dougmany 10y ago
    I think at the 1000 charge cycle point, the batteries degrade but are not useless. There is an idea that they can then be used as grid tied storage or in places where AH/Kg does not matter as much.
    - sqeaky 10y ago
      I thought they took the guts out and seperated the constituent parts and put back in the raw material side of the gigafactory. Or did I just make that up?
  - greglindahl 10y ago
    In addition to the other commenters about EV batteries, note that 99% of the 12V starter batteries used in conventional vehicles in the US are recycled.
- c22 10y ago
  Presumably this is why they are getting into the battery market.
- jsight 10y ago
  Yeah, based upon the 1000 cycle count, Teslas will start to depreciate pretty badly at somewhere between 215,000 and 350,000 miles. Is that bad?
- vectorjohn 10y ago
  The fear of battery degradation is way way overblown. You'll drive at least a few hundred thousand miles before you might "need" to replace it [1]. And even then, you could keep going. [1] https://electrek.co/2016/06/06/tesla-model-s-battery-pack-data-degradation/amp/ https://electrek.co/2016/06/06/tesla-model-s-battery-pack-da...
jaclaz 10y ago
As a corollary, consider how much fuel (particularly diesel) and much more than that oil (lubricating oil) have bettered around those times. AFAICT in "practical" mechanical engineering tribology: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tribology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tribology is one of the fields that made the most progresses in the 90's, thanks also to the introduction on the market of totally or partially sinthetic oil, that literally changed the game when it comes to car engines duration. The (huge) difference in spark plug life depends more on electronic ignition, of course and that also became mainstream in late 80's and 90's. When it comes to water pumps, allow me to disagree, however, once upon a time if a water pump leaked you just changed gaskets and maybe the ball bearings, since around the same time you are often forced to buy a new "whole" pump as they are not any more serviceable.
- fnordfnordfnord 10y ago
  Yes, I agree that the oil has a major role as well. As far as water pumps go, I've noticed that they often have alloy impellers now, and used to have stamped steel ones. I've heard of people rebuilding water pumps themselves (as opposed to buying a remanufactured unit), but never seen that done except in special cases (large stationary engine, rare obsolete engine).

Cthulhu_ 10y ago

This is why I'm rather afraid of Tesla and their batteries - you know batteries, whether intentional or not, only last for about 1000 charge cycles, or in the case of Tesla for about 7-10 years, before they have to be replaced - which won't be cheap. This will be an Issue that will be highlighted very soon. We'll see a huge devaluation in secondhand Tesla cars, since replacing the battery will be more expensive than replacing an engine in a car (I believe), plus it'll have to be done every ten years - while a car can keep the same engine for decades, especially when some of the wearables like timing belts and seals and such are replaced. I hope Tesla will recognise this too and do something about it - battery replacement programs, preferably where they can replace batteries with higher-capacity ones as time goes by. I don't see how owning a car in full can work for electric cars, not when the battery needs to be replaced every ten years. I don't know what the lifespan of the drive unit is either.

steven777400 10y ago
I'd like to know more about this too, and how Tesla and other companies plan to address it. I'm particularly concerned about the potential environmental impact of dumping a bunch of batteries into landfills. Is there a battery reburishment/recycling program for these vehicles?
- mywittyname 10y ago
  Yeah, they are high 90s% recyclable, depending on the technology.
- JeffL 10y ago
  Tesla's battery recycling program sounds pretty impressive, and the cost of new batteries is lower every year. https://www.tesla.com/blog/teslas-closed-loop-battery-recycling-program https://www.tesla.com/blog/teslas-closed-loop-battery-recycl...
- dougmany 10y ago
  I think at the 1000 charge cycle point, the batteries degrade but are not useless. There is an idea that they can then be used as grid tied storage or in places where AH/Kg does not matter as much.
  - sqeaky 10y ago
    I thought they took the guts out and seperated the constituent parts and put back in the raw material side of the gigafactory. Or did I just make that up?
- greglindahl 10y ago
  In addition to the other commenters about EV batteries, note that 99% of the 12V starter batteries used in conventional vehicles in the US are recycled.
c22 10y ago
Presumably this is why they are getting into the battery market.
jsight 10y ago
Yeah, based upon the 1000 cycle count, Teslas will start to depreciate pretty badly at somewhere between 215,000 and 350,000 miles. Is that bad?
vectorjohn 10y ago
The fear of battery degradation is way way overblown. You'll drive at least a few hundred thousand miles before you might "need" to replace it [1]. And even then, you could keep going. [1] https://electrek.co/2016/06/06/tesla-model-s-battery-pack-data-degradation/amp/ https://electrek.co/2016/06/06/tesla-model-s-battery-pack-da...

jaclaz 10y ago

As a corollary, consider how much fuel (particularly diesel) and much more than that oil (lubricating oil) have bettered around those times. AFAICT in "practical" mechanical engineering tribology: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tribology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tribology is one of the fields that made the most progresses in the 90's, thanks also to the introduction on the market of totally or partially sinthetic oil, that literally changed the game when it comes to car engines duration. The (huge) difference in spark plug life depends more on electronic ignition, of course and that also became mainstream in late 80's and 90's. When it comes to water pumps, allow me to disagree, however, once upon a time if a water pump leaked you just changed gaskets and maybe the ball bearings, since around the same time you are often forced to buy a new "whole" pump as they are not any more serviceable.

fnordfnordfnord 10y ago
Yes, I agree that the oil has a major role as well. As far as water pumps go, I've noticed that they often have alloy impellers now, and used to have stamped steel ones. I've heard of people rebuilding water pumps themselves (as opposed to buying a remanufactured unit), but never seen that done except in special cases (large stationary engine, rare obsolete engine).