4 ms·

Worth talking of the pros and cons of a Democracy vs. a Republic. Are we sure listening to a lot of people makes long term sense?

wil421 10y ago
"Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that." -George Carlin Really makes you wonder if the populous can be trusted to make big decisions. I'd like to think I'm a smart person but I'm not sure if I'm smart enough (or dumb enough) for politics.
- k-mcgrady 10y ago
  >> Really makes you wonder if the populous can be trusted to make big decisions They can't. That's why we elect representatives who should be talking to experts and figuring out the impact of decisions. And then for some reason they take the biggest decision of our generation, give it to us, lie to us about the impact, and tell us to ignore the experts.
  - hyperdunc 10y ago
    Experts are easily corrupted, and so there's an expert to argue every position.
    - k-mcgrady 10y ago
      They still know a hell of a lot more than the average joe. Listen to both sides and make an informed decision. Don't dismiss them and expect to know more.
      - TomMarius 10y ago
        I have a much more usual one for you: don't listen to anyone and pick whatever the guy that gives half of the money into your pocket says.
        dagw 10y ago
        If someone is willing to pay me £100k to vote for a bill and someone else is willing to pay me £200k to against it then, by the Law of Free Markets, voting against is the best option.
    - pottersbasilisk 10y ago
      yes Nasim Taleeb has been arguing modern experts are wrong about alot and have no skin in the game. This article blew my mind. https://medium.com/incerto/the-intellectual-yet-idiot-13211e2d0577#.c1z7dcyfq https://medium.com/incerto/the-intellectual-yet-idiot-13211e...
  - SideburnsOfDoom 10y ago
    > representatives who should be talking to experts "I think the people in this country have had enough of experts" - Michael Gove
- lispm 10y ago
  It's not unusual that important topics require more than a simple majority.
  - wil421 10y ago
    There are people who say we need to vote on everything and the US is not a democracy because of it.
croon 10y ago
Or a Democracy vs Epistocracy. I realize how stupid I am in a lot of areas. And if I think I'm better than others, it's in my ability to realize my shortcomings. If only people more knowledgable than me ruled (and there's obviously nothing stopping me from learning/becoming more involved), I'd be very happy, even if I knew too little to get a vote.
- sgift 10y ago
  The problem with all variants of "only subgroup x should be able to vote" is the potential for abuse. Who writes the test? Who grades the test? Who defines the correct answers? And so on. As long as we don't have a solution for that all "only subgroup x may vote"-systems are not really feasible.
  - croon 10y ago
    Absolutely. But that's the problem with a republic too. And frankly anything that's not a direct democracy, of which there are none in the world.
twen_ty 10y ago
Here's a little anecdote: https://www.indy100.com/article/brexit-leave-remain-voters-120000-dead-result-7463341 https://www.indy100.com/article/brexit-leave-remain-voters-1... Problem is, a non-binding referendum with just a binary subject with virtually zero clarity on how the process will be exercised was shoved down our throats. It's easy to blame the masses but the real problem was created by the politicians (e.g. David Cameron/the Tories) and their arrogance and short-sightedness.
- cjrp 10y ago
  Not to mention the lack of coherent opposition from Labour.
- hunta2097 10y ago
  It was a war of the negatives. Neither side chose to express the positives. Brexiters were portrayed as small-minded xenophobes. The EU took the "We won't throw you a bone, what are you going to do about it?" approach. If there was a middle-ground option it would have won by a landslide. I don't see large enough majority worthy of this amount of change.
gkya 10y ago
Democracydepends on how you define the demos: now it's all the adults, but it was not this way originally. The demos was, in the Ancient Greece, the free elite. A parallel thing today could kind-of be to let vote only uni graduates. Plato classifies democracy as the least effective political system when it's good and the least worst whenit's corrupt (Politikos 302b-303c), and I think that's sort if a nice trade off, but functions better when fake religions like nationalism and patriotism are not around and the countries are smaller.
pjc50 10y ago
If you're going to make that pedantic a distinction, then the UK is neither; it's a constitutional monarchy.
dragonwriter 10y ago
> Worth talking of the pros and cons of a Democracy vs. a Republic. "Democracy" and "Republic" are overlapping categories, rather than opposed ones.

wil421 10y ago

"Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that." -George Carlin Really makes you wonder if the populous can be trusted to make big decisions. I'd like to think I'm a smart person but I'm not sure if I'm smart enough (or dumb enough) for politics.

k-mcgrady 10y ago
>> Really makes you wonder if the populous can be trusted to make big decisions They can't. That's why we elect representatives who should be talking to experts and figuring out the impact of decisions. And then for some reason they take the biggest decision of our generation, give it to us, lie to us about the impact, and tell us to ignore the experts.
- hyperdunc 10y ago
  Experts are easily corrupted, and so there's an expert to argue every position.
  - k-mcgrady 10y ago
    They still know a hell of a lot more than the average joe. Listen to both sides and make an informed decision. Don't dismiss them and expect to know more.
    - TomMarius 10y ago
      I have a much more usual one for you: don't listen to anyone and pick whatever the guy that gives half of the money into your pocket says.
      - dagw 10y ago
        If someone is willing to pay me £100k to vote for a bill and someone else is willing to pay me £200k to against it then, by the Law of Free Markets, voting against is the best option.
  - pottersbasilisk 10y ago
    yes Nasim Taleeb has been arguing modern experts are wrong about alot and have no skin in the game. This article blew my mind. https://medium.com/incerto/the-intellectual-yet-idiot-13211e2d0577#.c1z7dcyfq https://medium.com/incerto/the-intellectual-yet-idiot-13211e...
- SideburnsOfDoom 10y ago
  > representatives who should be talking to experts "I think the people in this country have had enough of experts" - Michael Gove
lispm 10y ago
It's not unusual that important topics require more than a simple majority.
- wil421 10y ago
  There are people who say we need to vote on everything and the US is not a democracy because of it.

croon 10y ago

Or a Democracy vs Epistocracy. I realize how stupid I am in a lot of areas. And if I think I'm better than others, it's in my ability to realize my shortcomings. If only people more knowledgable than me ruled (and there's obviously nothing stopping me from learning/becoming more involved), I'd be very happy, even if I knew too little to get a vote.

sgift 10y ago
The problem with all variants of "only subgroup x should be able to vote" is the potential for abuse. Who writes the test? Who grades the test? Who defines the correct answers? And so on. As long as we don't have a solution for that all "only subgroup x may vote"-systems are not really feasible.
- croon 10y ago
  Absolutely. But that's the problem with a republic too. And frankly anything that's not a direct democracy, of which there are none in the world.

twen_ty 10y ago

Here's a little anecdote: https://www.indy100.com/article/brexit-leave-remain-voters-120000-dead-result-7463341 https://www.indy100.com/article/brexit-leave-remain-voters-1... Problem is, a non-binding referendum with just a binary subject with virtually zero clarity on how the process will be exercised was shoved down our throats. It's easy to blame the masses but the real problem was created by the politicians (e.g. David Cameron/the Tories) and their arrogance and short-sightedness.

cjrp 10y ago
Not to mention the lack of coherent opposition from Labour.
hunta2097 10y ago
It was a war of the negatives. Neither side chose to express the positives. Brexiters were portrayed as small-minded xenophobes. The EU took the "We won't throw you a bone, what are you going to do about it?" approach. If there was a middle-ground option it would have won by a landslide. I don't see large enough majority worthy of this amount of change.

gkya 10y ago

Democracydepends on how you define the demos: now it's all the adults, but it was not this way originally. The demos was, in the Ancient Greece, the free elite. A parallel thing today could kind-of be to let vote only uni graduates. Plato classifies democracy as the least effective political system when it's good and the least worst whenit's corrupt (Politikos 302b-303c), and I think that's sort if a nice trade off, but functions better when fake religions like nationalism and patriotism are not around and the countries are smaller.

pjc50 10y ago

If you're going to make that pedantic a distinction, then the UK is neither; it's a constitutional monarchy.

dragonwriter 10y ago

> Worth talking of the pros and cons of a Democracy vs. a Republic. "Democracy" and "Republic" are overlapping categories, rather than opposed ones.