5 ms·

For immigration, it could make sense, at least in a utilitarian sense. You are trying to eliminate false-negatives, and checking criminal background (in other c

by tehlike 10y ago

For immigration, it could make sense, at least in a utilitarian sense. You are trying to eliminate false-negatives, and checking criminal background (in other countries) is one way to do that. Now, many countries (esp. developing ones) people get imprisoned for expressing their thoughts (which is a shame), but whether USA would/should care about this or not is a different question. USA has a quota on how many immigrants it will allow, and it wants the best people. There are many people that can satisfy that requirement.

buro9 10y ago
In the case cited in the article, of a child who as a pre-teenager ended up on a sexual register, does it make sense? Would it make sense if a homeless child had been caught shoplifting for food in their teenage years and 30 years later had turned their life around and become a professional... does it still make sense? And of refugees, does it make sense to offer foreign governments a mechanism to prevent emigration simply by arresting those who are likely to leave? The lack of rehabilitation as a fundamental concept that underpins the treatment of people, is a life sentence to those people.
- tehlike 10y ago
  I totally agree with you, but my point is, why would US?
  - buro9 10y ago
    To deprive a foreign power of influence in the decision making process. To enshrine in the process one of the myths of the American Dream in the form of potential for social mobility. To judge based on the virtues of the individual, rather than to judge based on the legal domain from which the individual originates (you should know that different countries have different standards, is the USA an enforcer of every standard?). Those are a few that spring to mind.
    - tehlike 10y ago
      This is where my "utilitarian" comment comes in, for the lack of better word. There are thousands if not millions of people willing to emigrate, with many decorated ones. I see this similar to "tech interviews" where an individual is asked for arbitrary algorithm questions (that are deemed hard). The idea is to eliminate false positives, even if it comes at the expense of false negatives. I disagree with the current US view on "criminal history", for the reasons you say, it also makes me scared because of false convictions, for example. I also don't trust the legal system of another country, and i agree each case to its own. something that's illegal in a country could be considered a human right / freedom in the US. But i think i see the point.
Retric 10y ago
This assumes the 'best' people are least likely to get arrested. I reject that idea as pushing boundaries is very common among the most intellectually gifted.
- Trundle 10y ago
  Why said anything about intellectually gifted? He said best.
- stagbeetle 10y ago
  In the same vein, you could say that the intellectually gifted wouldn't have gotten arrested in the first place, but pushed the boundaries to just before the tipping point. It could be a sign of recklessness and an inability to mesh with society. But, arguing over this is useless. The majority of the people who've been arrested are not the "best" people. They are usually from low socioeconomic backgrounds[0], i.e usually not as educated. We can also ignore this point entirely. A large part of the American population sees criminals as life-criminals, i.e do it once and you'll do it every chance you get. It doesn't matter what the minority thinks on this issue. As long as the majority believes this is "right" it will prevail. As will the democratic process, for better or worse. The topic that should be discussed, is how would one go about educating the public on this issue. Is it possible to go the route of the Scandinavian system? [0]https://www.prisonpolicy.org/reports/income.html https://www.prisonpolicy.org/reports/income.html
  - Retric 10y ago
    Criminal behavior is very wide spread, arrests are most common at the bottom. EX: How many top bankers have we arrested after the banking crisis?
- tehlike 10y ago
  Nothing is black and white. We might be talking about 5 gifted people for every 1000 people with criminal history. But US might be optimizing for 20 gifted people outside of that group, even if it means losing 5.

by tehlike 10y ago

buro9 10y ago

In the case cited in the article, of a child who as a pre-teenager ended up on a sexual register, does it make sense? Would it make sense if a homeless child had been caught shoplifting for food in their teenage years and 30 years later had turned their life around and become a professional... does it still make sense? And of refugees, does it make sense to offer foreign governments a mechanism to prevent emigration simply by arresting those who are likely to leave? The lack of rehabilitation as a fundamental concept that underpins the treatment of people, is a life sentence to those people.

tehlike 10y ago
I totally agree with you, but my point is, why would US?
- buro9 10y ago
  To deprive a foreign power of influence in the decision making process. To enshrine in the process one of the myths of the American Dream in the form of potential for social mobility. To judge based on the virtues of the individual, rather than to judge based on the legal domain from which the individual originates (you should know that different countries have different standards, is the USA an enforcer of every standard?). Those are a few that spring to mind.
  - tehlike 10y ago
    This is where my "utilitarian" comment comes in, for the lack of better word. There are thousands if not millions of people willing to emigrate, with many decorated ones. I see this similar to "tech interviews" where an individual is asked for arbitrary algorithm questions (that are deemed hard). The idea is to eliminate false positives, even if it comes at the expense of false negatives. I disagree with the current US view on "criminal history", for the reasons you say, it also makes me scared because of false convictions, for example. I also don't trust the legal system of another country, and i agree each case to its own. something that's illegal in a country could be considered a human right / freedom in the US. But i think i see the point.

Retric 10y ago

This assumes the 'best' people are least likely to get arrested. I reject that idea as pushing boundaries is very common among the most intellectually gifted.

Trundle 10y ago
Why said anything about intellectually gifted? He said best.
stagbeetle 10y ago
In the same vein, you could say that the intellectually gifted wouldn't have gotten arrested in the first place, but pushed the boundaries to just before the tipping point. It could be a sign of recklessness and an inability to mesh with society. But, arguing over this is useless. The majority of the people who've been arrested are not the "best" people. They are usually from low socioeconomic backgrounds[0], i.e usually not as educated. We can also ignore this point entirely. A large part of the American population sees criminals as life-criminals, i.e do it once and you'll do it every chance you get. It doesn't matter what the minority thinks on this issue. As long as the majority believes this is "right" it will prevail. As will the democratic process, for better or worse. The topic that should be discussed, is how would one go about educating the public on this issue. Is it possible to go the route of the Scandinavian system? [0]https://www.prisonpolicy.org/reports/income.html https://www.prisonpolicy.org/reports/income.html
- Retric 10y ago
  Criminal behavior is very wide spread, arrests are most common at the bottom. EX: How many top bankers have we arrested after the banking crisis?
tehlike 10y ago
Nothing is black and white. We might be talking about 5 gifted people for every 1000 people with criminal history. But US might be optimizing for 20 gifted people outside of that group, even if it means losing 5.