10 ms·

This. In Norway (heck, in Scandinavia, and, is my impression, in most of North/Central Europe, too), there's strong focus on rehabilitation. Inmates are encou

by lb1lf 10y ago

This. In Norway (heck, in Scandinavia, and, is my impression, in most of North/Central Europe, too), there's strong focus on rehabilitation. Inmates are encouraged to pursue education while incarcerated. If you want to enter a trade, there are workshops &c in the prisons where you can do your apprenticeship. Also, in all but the (rare) cases where you are deemed to be a lasting danger to society, you are automatically eligible for parole after serving 2/3 of the sentence. This, combined with a maximum sentence of 21 years imprisonment, means that most offenders are released back into society after a maximum of 14 years behind bars. During the latter part of your sentencing, you are progressively granted more and more freedom - for instance, halfway houses where you can go to work in the daytime but need to observe a curfew in evenings/nights. The idea, of course, being to prepare you for civilian life again. Result? The recidivism rate is among the lowest in the world, at approx. 20% overall. (I didn't know that until I googled it while writing this comment.) That being said, liberal me still feel somewhat less lenient towards paedophiles; I guess any parent does. However, I don't think the solution is locking them up and throwing away the key; much better to provide counseling and treatment to bring their recidivism rate down as well. It is my firm conviction no society can imprison anyone for life just in case they should reoffend and still consider themselves civilized. Obviously, your mileage may vary.

gigatexal 10y ago
America is hell-bent on not being like Europe even given the good there is to learn from.
- lb1lf 10y ago
  -Oh, there's no such thing as a perfect society, IMHO - but when it comes to crime and punishment, I do think the US could benefit from taking a leaf or two from our books. However, there are a couple of key differences (still IMHO!) which makes it difficult to compare the two. Most notably, perhaps - we do not elect judges. Nor do we elect police chiefs. The latter are positions you apply for as you would any other; the former are appointed by a non-partisan committee. Hence, there's no benefit for representatives of the judicial and executive to be seen as tough on crime; there's no gain to be had. As for the legislative, there's a fairly broad consensus, the odd populist aside, that sentencing (mostly) is well matched to the needs of society - so there's no strong drive to enforce harsher punishment. (And believe me, we did discuss this ad nauseum and then some after the 2011 labour party youth camp terror attack!(0)) Surely, there's a component of punishment - after all, you want to send a message to others contemplating the same crime that you need to factor jail time into your calculations - but the main focus is to ensure you don't end up behind bars again, as that would be a net loss both to you, the future victims and society at large. (0) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Norway_attacks https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Norway_attacks
  - gigatexal 10y ago
    I didn't mean to insinuate that Europe was perfect just that there are things we could learn that would help us one of which is the rehab vs throw-away-the-key approach to prisoners.
    - lb1lf 10y ago
      Oops, my bad - my intent was simply to acknowledge that we old-worlders do have a thing or two to learn from our former colonies, too.
      - gigatexal 10y ago
        Agreed. I didn't take your comments as anything other than constructive. Alas, though, this administration has no diplomacy.
  - galdosdi 10y ago
    In the US electing police chiefs is rare (but can happen under the Commission style of city government). Prosecutors, however, are often elected, and you can imagine the incentive problems.
sgift 10y ago
> That being said, liberal me still feel somewhat less lenient towards paedophiles; I guess any parent does. It's a sickness. And we have (mental) hospitals for sick people. Problem solved, no leniency required.
- stagbeetle 10y ago
  There was a short documentary about pedophilia showing the opposite: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-Fx6P7d21o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-Fx6P7d21o It's a sensitive subject, but treating pedophilia as something that can be cured with medical intervention is rash. This mindset is akin to treating homosexuality with shock therapy.
  - ionised 10y ago
    > This mindset is akin to treating homosexuality with shock therapy. If like homosexuality it's not a mental illness then that means it is either a conscious decision to only be attracted to and target childrent (which I find unlikely) or it is natural occurence somewhere on the human sexual spectrum. How do we reconcile that with the attitude most people seem to have, that paedophiles need to be severely punished for being what they are? Are they this way from birth like we consider homosexuals to be?
- hythloday 10y ago
  We've thought exactly the same in the past about depression, homosexuality, unmarried mothers and outspoken women, but yes, maybe this time medicalizing something before we know much about it is the right answer and won't make us look like abhorrent barbarians to our grandchildren.

by lb1lf 10y ago

gigatexal 10y ago

America is hell-bent on not being like Europe even given the good there is to learn from.

lb1lf 10y ago
-Oh, there's no such thing as a perfect society, IMHO - but when it comes to crime and punishment, I do think the US could benefit from taking a leaf or two from our books. However, there are a couple of key differences (still IMHO!) which makes it difficult to compare the two. Most notably, perhaps - we do not elect judges. Nor do we elect police chiefs. The latter are positions you apply for as you would any other; the former are appointed by a non-partisan committee. Hence, there's no benefit for representatives of the judicial and executive to be seen as tough on crime; there's no gain to be had. As for the legislative, there's a fairly broad consensus, the odd populist aside, that sentencing (mostly) is well matched to the needs of society - so there's no strong drive to enforce harsher punishment. (And believe me, we did discuss this ad nauseum and then some after the 2011 labour party youth camp terror attack!(0)) Surely, there's a component of punishment - after all, you want to send a message to others contemplating the same crime that you need to factor jail time into your calculations - but the main focus is to ensure you don't end up behind bars again, as that would be a net loss both to you, the future victims and society at large. (0) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Norway_attacks https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Norway_attacks
- gigatexal 10y ago
  I didn't mean to insinuate that Europe was perfect just that there are things we could learn that would help us one of which is the rehab vs throw-away-the-key approach to prisoners.
  - lb1lf 10y ago
    Oops, my bad - my intent was simply to acknowledge that we old-worlders do have a thing or two to learn from our former colonies, too.
    - gigatexal 10y ago
      Agreed. I didn't take your comments as anything other than constructive. Alas, though, this administration has no diplomacy.
- galdosdi 10y ago
  In the US electing police chiefs is rare (but can happen under the Commission style of city government). Prosecutors, however, are often elected, and you can imagine the incentive problems.

sgift 10y ago

> That being said, liberal me still feel somewhat less lenient towards paedophiles; I guess any parent does. It's a sickness. And we have (mental) hospitals for sick people. Problem solved, no leniency required.

stagbeetle 10y ago
There was a short documentary about pedophilia showing the opposite: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-Fx6P7d21o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-Fx6P7d21o It's a sensitive subject, but treating pedophilia as something that can be cured with medical intervention is rash. This mindset is akin to treating homosexuality with shock therapy.
- ionised 10y ago
  > This mindset is akin to treating homosexuality with shock therapy. If like homosexuality it's not a mental illness then that means it is either a conscious decision to only be attracted to and target childrent (which I find unlikely) or it is natural occurence somewhere on the human sexual spectrum. How do we reconcile that with the attitude most people seem to have, that paedophiles need to be severely punished for being what they are? Are they this way from birth like we consider homosexuals to be?
hythloday 10y ago
We've thought exactly the same in the past about depression, homosexuality, unmarried mothers and outspoken women, but yes, maybe this time medicalizing something before we know much about it is the right answer and won't make us look like abhorrent barbarians to our grandchildren.