5 ms·

Definitely written by someone not in, and not closely related to anyone on. There is a sense of puzzlement that help isn't sought. But in some MOS and some fi

by VLM 10y ago

Definitely written by someone not in, and not closely related to anyone on. There is a sense of puzzlement that help isn't sought. But in some MOS and some fields and some clearances seeking help is career suicide. Not all, but some. Not all soldiers are career and not all MOS and security clearances require no mental illness diag of course. So a soldier will only seek help if he's ready to pull the trigger on career suicide in which case doing the real thing is a microstep. You can tell people to seek help all you want to make you feel better about doing something, but if they know by example that their lifes work will be wiped out and they'll be unemployed in weeks if they actually follow thru and seek help, well, you do the math. Second gaping hole is some of the support REMF (I was a REMF so I can use that acronym "proudly") have higher sec clearances than some front line. Naturally that means some front line both see some interesting stuff and if they get help for what they saw they might not lose their job. And the REMF now a days might get blown up in a convoy or IED or whatever as bad as a front line, yet if they seek help its bye bye MOS. I have no personal experience with this, I was in during the early 90s but I kinda keep up with the times. There's an old saying about it being a rather permanent solution to a temporary problem. Young kids tend to have poor concept of time. A year in Korea is bad, but not worth offing yourself, unless you're a dumb kid, but then you don't want to speak ill of the dead, so ... As with most big messes there is no simple solution and the more you know, the more complicated it is...

sndean 10y ago
> So a soldier will only seek help if he's ready to pull the trigger on career suicide This matches my relative's experience. He only got help with PTSD once he was given the green light to retire from 20 years in TS clearance job. It's pretty frustrating, once you see how dramatically their life improves following a few months of seeing a psychologist. He could've gotten that help a decade ago.
- whb07 10y ago
  The point of the article is to point out that the incidences of suicide in the military isn't disproportionate to civilians. This is something that's being blown out of proportion by the media and in return Congress pushes down DoD to make this a bigger issue than what it really is. Furthermore, your relative is a grown adult who decided that he should stay the course and not see a therapist for his condition based on possible consequences on his career. Clearly this happens in every career where there are high rewards, in this case a life time pension(valued over $1mm). Well, shit guess what, he made to him what seems like the best choice. For reference, look at a surgeon who is getting the shakes on his right hand or the NFL player hiding his broken collarbone injury during his free agent try outs. Or for a more military reference: the young guy hiding his fracture on X bone during selection phase for Y job. (doctor's typical question: "why didnt you come to us sooner when you knew something was wrong", clearly has no idea the drive and motivation behind the young man)
  - nananonymous 10y ago
    I think the comments above are pointing out what appear to be perverse incentives surrounding seeking mental health resources. It raises the question of whether those incentives could be changed in a way that all parties would benefit.
  - coldtea 10y ago
    >The point of the article is to point out that the incidences of suicide in the military isn't disproportionate to civilians. Note that for this to be OK, we should expect to see the same number of incidences in the military as one expects to see in civilians. If we have a reason to expect lower suicide rates from military personnel (e.g. better health, less incidents of alcoholism/substance abuse, no joblessness, regular psychiatric evaluations, etc compared to the general population), then it's not OK.
  - gech 10y ago
    So dismissive and ignorant of systemic causes, reduces problems to an individual's "choices". Diagnosis: conservatism.
Klathmon 10y ago
Now i'm about as far removed from this area as you can get, but would "mandatory counseling" be helpful? Require that everyone get counseling all the time. I don't really have an answer for how "confidential" to keep those records (keeping them 100% confidential is fantastic, but I can also see the merit of knowing your soldier is mentally stable...), but at the very least requiring every single service member at least attend would put them in the room with a therapist and get them accustomed to talking about things. I'm sure there would still be issues (like a "Has PTSD" checkbox that would cause the same result as you describe), but would it be a net positive?
- w0rd-driven 10y ago
  I'm as far removed or more so but don't police have some form of this whenever they discharge their weapon? I realize that can't logistically happen very easily in a combat situation. I would at least hope there would be the option to talk to someone about it. Someone that doesn't pass judgment and just simply listens. I feel like in this scenario anything is better than nothing at all.
- whb07 10y ago
  There are little questionnaires(online) throughout the year that might flag someone with any kinds of issues. Obviously, you can easily lie about it, then again so could you hide issues from your doctor. This a whole is a moot point. Culturally, there is awareness that intense situations like combat will mess one up mentally and are generally open to talk to a buddy or seek help. That being said, like Tim Kennedy once said in regards to PTSD and dealing with stress its a world of difference for those who constantly train and deal with certain situations and have the infrastructure in place for them i.e- infantry & other combat arms jobs. Those who are not in those job fields aren't training for it, not mentally prepared, etc but might still be caught up in combat situations. i.e - the water specialist or accountant driving his little truck in Iraq. To add to all this, its usually young men who commit suicide. Its just a thing they do. Which happens to be most of the military.
- pmiller2 10y ago
  I would never open up to a therapist my employer forced me to go to. If anything, I'd self-pay an independent therapist and keep it off insurance so they wouldn't know.
galago 10y ago
I got the sense the same situation exists for pilots when I read about Germanwings flight 9525. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanwings_Flight_9525 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanwings_Flight_9525
AndrewKemendo 10y ago
But in some MOS and some fields and some clearances seeking help is career suicide. This is a truly toxic misnomer - and one that needs to die. As a former CC of one of those types of units, I can tell you that the only way that would happen is if your mental health issue caused a real world problem that created a chance that you could be vulnerable to coercion from a FIA. I've never heard of someone who got read off because they were diagnosed with something - it's always been in conjunction with them doing something illegal or vulnerable to exploit. If an SCI troop seeks counseling, either through Doc or something like MIL One Source, you will have no issues, even with a diagnosis. Once you've passed through screening, indoc, training and are in the game it would be ridiculous to take someone out cause they got rattled. In fact we always pushed it mental health heavily to all of the other spooks cause there are real mind fucks in playing our games that can get to people. Second gaping hole is some of the support REMF (I was a REMF so I can use that acronym "proudly") have higher sec clearances than some front line. In fact, it's most likely that a REMF (read: non 11/18/03) will have a higher clearance. Spot on too with the fact that a lot of non-standard troops are seeing the worst parts of the shit. Aside from SOF, Docs, Spooks and Engineers have been taking the brunt of it the past few years.
- lithos 10y ago
  I was about to question the OP as well. The NAVY at least has gone through a bunch of work to make it difficult for skilled/invested-in workers to leave. If it was that easy to rid yourself of clearance, A LOT of programs would empty themselves out pretty rapidly.
- dhimes 10y ago
  If what you are saying is true it has changed significantly since the '80s/early '90s. Back then psych help could truly be a career killer.
- VLM 10y ago
  You have good judgment and I have good judgment but the troop who's whole problem is poor judgment WRT a dumb permanent solution to a temporary treatable problem is by the nature of the problem not going to react very well to "that created a chance" and "vulnerable to exploit" type of talk. If the whole point is they're coming up with a drastically wrong solution to a problem, theoretical probability talk is the same as 100% certain to them in their bad judgment situation. Or maybe another way to phrase it is if the troop inaccurately thinks he's in the worst situation humanly imaginable, telling him that the half of the guys who aren't in the very worst situation turn out fine, isn't really much encouragement, because by definition if the troop had judgment good enough to interpret the problem as something the docs can patch up, it wouldn't be a problem... From the point of view of the troop with a problem, you're publicly agreeing with me. Another important point is in the army its not as simple as civilians see everything not forbidden is compulsory and everything not compulsory is forbidden. Its much more nuanced and for lifers losing out on a competitive slot or promotion or MOS reclass is a major problem. There's a difference in the army between "we're kicking you out" and "we're not supporting your career progression anymore". Essentially the latter is waiting for them to leave, the army can be surprisingly passive-aggressive as a policy. Yes if you go to BH you almost certainly won't get kicked out for that reason, but a hoped for career and retirement could evaporate just as effectively as if the troop got kicked out. I haven't filled out a SF86 in probably 30 years, but I found a copy online at opm.gov and its right there on page 84 they want all the info on any mental health counseling. If it truly didn't matter then they wouldn't be wasting time asking. I can sympathize with the Army's need to kick mentally ill people out (preferably with treatment). The problem with a depressed chopper pilot is if he decides to CFIT into a mountain that's a very expensive helicopter and the passengers almost certainly didn't want to come along. The fundamental nature of the army mission is an individual's problem is the team's problem.
averagewall 10y ago
It's not just soldiers. Try immigrating to another country and the application form could ask about mental illness. Whatever they use that information for, it's surely not going to help your case.

by VLM 10y ago

sndean 10y ago

> So a soldier will only seek help if he's ready to pull the trigger on career suicide This matches my relative's experience. He only got help with PTSD once he was given the green light to retire from 20 years in TS clearance job. It's pretty frustrating, once you see how dramatically their life improves following a few months of seeing a psychologist. He could've gotten that help a decade ago.

whb07 10y ago
The point of the article is to point out that the incidences of suicide in the military isn't disproportionate to civilians. This is something that's being blown out of proportion by the media and in return Congress pushes down DoD to make this a bigger issue than what it really is. Furthermore, your relative is a grown adult who decided that he should stay the course and not see a therapist for his condition based on possible consequences on his career. Clearly this happens in every career where there are high rewards, in this case a life time pension(valued over $1mm). Well, shit guess what, he made to him what seems like the best choice. For reference, look at a surgeon who is getting the shakes on his right hand or the NFL player hiding his broken collarbone injury during his free agent try outs. Or for a more military reference: the young guy hiding his fracture on X bone during selection phase for Y job. (doctor's typical question: "why didnt you come to us sooner when you knew something was wrong", clearly has no idea the drive and motivation behind the young man)
- nananonymous 10y ago
  I think the comments above are pointing out what appear to be perverse incentives surrounding seeking mental health resources. It raises the question of whether those incentives could be changed in a way that all parties would benefit.
- coldtea 10y ago
  >The point of the article is to point out that the incidences of suicide in the military isn't disproportionate to civilians. Note that for this to be OK, we should expect to see the same number of incidences in the military as one expects to see in civilians. If we have a reason to expect lower suicide rates from military personnel (e.g. better health, less incidents of alcoholism/substance abuse, no joblessness, regular psychiatric evaluations, etc compared to the general population), then it's not OK.
- gech 10y ago
  So dismissive and ignorant of systemic causes, reduces problems to an individual's "choices". Diagnosis: conservatism.

Klathmon 10y ago

Now i'm about as far removed from this area as you can get, but would "mandatory counseling" be helpful? Require that everyone get counseling all the time. I don't really have an answer for how "confidential" to keep those records (keeping them 100% confidential is fantastic, but I can also see the merit of knowing your soldier is mentally stable...), but at the very least requiring every single service member at least attend would put them in the room with a therapist and get them accustomed to talking about things. I'm sure there would still be issues (like a "Has PTSD" checkbox that would cause the same result as you describe), but would it be a net positive?

w0rd-driven 10y ago
I'm as far removed or more so but don't police have some form of this whenever they discharge their weapon? I realize that can't logistically happen very easily in a combat situation. I would at least hope there would be the option to talk to someone about it. Someone that doesn't pass judgment and just simply listens. I feel like in this scenario anything is better than nothing at all.
whb07 10y ago
There are little questionnaires(online) throughout the year that might flag someone with any kinds of issues. Obviously, you can easily lie about it, then again so could you hide issues from your doctor. This a whole is a moot point. Culturally, there is awareness that intense situations like combat will mess one up mentally and are generally open to talk to a buddy or seek help. That being said, like Tim Kennedy once said in regards to PTSD and dealing with stress its a world of difference for those who constantly train and deal with certain situations and have the infrastructure in place for them i.e- infantry & other combat arms jobs. Those who are not in those job fields aren't training for it, not mentally prepared, etc but might still be caught up in combat situations. i.e - the water specialist or accountant driving his little truck in Iraq. To add to all this, its usually young men who commit suicide. Its just a thing they do. Which happens to be most of the military.
pmiller2 10y ago
I would never open up to a therapist my employer forced me to go to. If anything, I'd self-pay an independent therapist and keep it off insurance so they wouldn't know.

galago 10y ago

I got the sense the same situation exists for pilots when I read about Germanwings flight 9525. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanwings_Flight_9525 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanwings_Flight_9525

AndrewKemendo 10y ago

But in some MOS and some fields and some clearances seeking help is career suicide. This is a truly toxic misnomer - and one that needs to die. As a former CC of one of those types of units, I can tell you that the only way that would happen is if your mental health issue caused a real world problem that created a chance that you could be vulnerable to coercion from a FIA. I've never heard of someone who got read off because they were diagnosed with something - it's always been in conjunction with them doing something illegal or vulnerable to exploit. If an SCI troop seeks counseling, either through Doc or something like MIL One Source, you will have no issues, even with a diagnosis. Once you've passed through screening, indoc, training and are in the game it would be ridiculous to take someone out cause they got rattled. In fact we always pushed it mental health heavily to all of the other spooks cause there are real mind fucks in playing our games that can get to people. Second gaping hole is some of the support REMF (I was a REMF so I can use that acronym "proudly") have higher sec clearances than some front line. In fact, it's most likely that a REMF (read: non 11/18/03) will have a higher clearance. Spot on too with the fact that a lot of non-standard troops are seeing the worst parts of the shit. Aside from SOF, Docs, Spooks and Engineers have been taking the brunt of it the past few years.

lithos 10y ago
I was about to question the OP as well. The NAVY at least has gone through a bunch of work to make it difficult for skilled/invested-in workers to leave. If it was that easy to rid yourself of clearance, A LOT of programs would empty themselves out pretty rapidly.
dhimes 10y ago
If what you are saying is true it has changed significantly since the '80s/early '90s. Back then psych help could truly be a career killer.
VLM 10y ago
You have good judgment and I have good judgment but the troop who's whole problem is poor judgment WRT a dumb permanent solution to a temporary treatable problem is by the nature of the problem not going to react very well to "that created a chance" and "vulnerable to exploit" type of talk. If the whole point is they're coming up with a drastically wrong solution to a problem, theoretical probability talk is the same as 100% certain to them in their bad judgment situation. Or maybe another way to phrase it is if the troop inaccurately thinks he's in the worst situation humanly imaginable, telling him that the half of the guys who aren't in the very worst situation turn out fine, isn't really much encouragement, because by definition if the troop had judgment good enough to interpret the problem as something the docs can patch up, it wouldn't be a problem... From the point of view of the troop with a problem, you're publicly agreeing with me. Another important point is in the army its not as simple as civilians see everything not forbidden is compulsory and everything not compulsory is forbidden. Its much more nuanced and for lifers losing out on a competitive slot or promotion or MOS reclass is a major problem. There's a difference in the army between "we're kicking you out" and "we're not supporting your career progression anymore". Essentially the latter is waiting for them to leave, the army can be surprisingly passive-aggressive as a policy. Yes if you go to BH you almost certainly won't get kicked out for that reason, but a hoped for career and retirement could evaporate just as effectively as if the troop got kicked out. I haven't filled out a SF86 in probably 30 years, but I found a copy online at opm.gov and its right there on page 84 they want all the info on any mental health counseling. If it truly didn't matter then they wouldn't be wasting time asking. I can sympathize with the Army's need to kick mentally ill people out (preferably with treatment). The problem with a depressed chopper pilot is if he decides to CFIT into a mountain that's a very expensive helicopter and the passengers almost certainly didn't want to come along. The fundamental nature of the army mission is an individual's problem is the team's problem.

averagewall 10y ago

It's not just soldiers. Try immigrating to another country and the application form could ask about mental illness. Whatever they use that information for, it's surely not going to help your case.