6 ms·

When service members die by suicide, they look a lot like civilian suicides

85 points by curtis 10y ago

whb07 10y ago
Solid reporting and analysis. To further the stark difference in point of view from a veteran to civilian is a comic strip from a famous Marine illustrator: terminallance.com/2012/01/23/terminal-lance-174-breaking-news/
- averagewall 10y ago
  That's a weird mentality to think of a killer as a "dumbass" and a "huge dick" when your own job is to kill people. Does it matter if they're Americans or Iraqis? They're still people.
VLM 10y ago
Definitely written by someone not in, and not closely related to anyone on. There is a sense of puzzlement that help isn't sought. But in some MOS and some fields and some clearances seeking help is career suicide. Not all, but some. Not all soldiers are career and not all MOS and security clearances require no mental illness diag of course. So a soldier will only seek help if he's ready to pull the trigger on career suicide in which case doing the real thing is a microstep. You can tell people to seek help all you want to make you feel better about doing something, but if they know by example that their lifes work will be wiped out and they'll be unemployed in weeks if they actually follow thru and seek help, well, you do the math. Second gaping hole is some of the support REMF (I was a REMF so I can use that acronym "proudly") have higher sec clearances than some front line. Naturally that means some front line both see some interesting stuff and if they get help for what they saw they might not lose their job. And the REMF now a days might get blown up in a convoy or IED or whatever as bad as a front line, yet if they seek help its bye bye MOS. I have no personal experience with this, I was in during the early 90s but I kinda keep up with the times. There's an old saying about it being a rather permanent solution to a temporary problem. Young kids tend to have poor concept of time. A year in Korea is bad, but not worth offing yourself, unless you're a dumb kid, but then you don't want to speak ill of the dead, so ... As with most big messes there is no simple solution and the more you know, the more complicated it is...
- sndean 10y ago
  > So a soldier will only seek help if he's ready to pull the trigger on career suicide This matches my relative's experience. He only got help with PTSD once he was given the green light to retire from 20 years in TS clearance job. It's pretty frustrating, once you see how dramatically their life improves following a few months of seeing a psychologist. He could've gotten that help a decade ago.
  - whb07 10y ago
    The point of the article is to point out that the incidences of suicide in the military isn't disproportionate to civilians. This is something that's being blown out of proportion by the media and in return Congress pushes down DoD to make this a bigger issue than what it really is. Furthermore, your relative is a grown adult who decided that he should stay the course and not see a therapist for his condition based on possible consequences on his career. Clearly this happens in every career where there are high rewards, in this case a life time pension(valued over $1mm). Well, shit guess what, he made to him what seems like the best choice. For reference, look at a surgeon who is getting the shakes on his right hand or the NFL player hiding his broken collarbone injury during his free agent try outs. Or for a more military reference: the young guy hiding his fracture on X bone during selection phase for Y job. (doctor's typical question: "why didnt you come to us sooner when you knew something was wrong", clearly has no idea the drive and motivation behind the young man)
    - nananonymous 10y ago
      I think the comments above are pointing out what appear to be perverse incentives surrounding seeking mental health resources. It raises the question of whether those incentives could be changed in a way that all parties would benefit.
    - coldtea 10y ago
      >The point of the article is to point out that the incidences of suicide in the military isn't disproportionate to civilians. Note that for this to be OK, we should expect to see the same number of incidences in the military as one expects to see in civilians. If we have a reason to expect lower suicide rates from military personnel (e.g. better health, less incidents of alcoholism/substance abuse, no joblessness, regular psychiatric evaluations, etc compared to the general population), then it's not OK.
anotheryou 10y ago
How to handle people that you know are suicidal, but refuse to undergo treatment? I once had this situation (luckily with a happy end), that I only knew the rough location (in another country) and tried to talk someone out of it over the course of about a week. I was very close to calling the police, but was afraid it would do more harm than good. The person I was dealing with was very rational and calm about it and would probably just convinced the police of beeing fine.
- Kenji 10y ago
  I think you handled the situation correctly. You can't do much. Just like you can't do much if a loved one is injured or sick and dying but they do not want to go to a doctor (this actually happened to a friend). It's very hard to get a handle on these situations because most 1st world countries have a strong concept of individual liberty. I am actually glad it is that way, but I also realize how awful those situations are. But frankly, I'd rather not erode liberty to better deal with such cases, I think the problem has to be attacked from another direction, i.e. not stigmatising mental health problems, more conversation, tolerance, education about mental health, etc.
gerdesj 10y ago
All I can do is listen here and maybe learn something.
davewasthere 10y ago
I think the article got it close that it's really to do with being: Male, Young, White. When I was with the firm, we had a spate of suicides on base over a short period of time. Enough for 'management' to implement an in-loco parentis type arrangement for the young, single servicemen (and women) who were housed on base in barracks. It meant great adventure trips away - and did help give some sort of support network for those posted away from families. A better option than just drinking in the bar, at least. There are help options available (career suicide or not), but if you're depressed/suicidal, it's actually quite difficult to reach out to those options. In a well-run workplace environment, I found the Sergeants (and up) to be both a wealth of knowledge/experience and most were quite actively involved in taking care of the well-being of us young skins.
- sandworm101 10y ago
  Ive seen similar attempts to compensate, to de-toxify a base by adding on new activities. Im not a fan. It is the easy solution. The harder option is to dig out the issues. Debt. Count the number of payday loan places and casinos near the base. Drugs and alcohol. Count the bars. Then turn to the attitudes of team leaders. Petty insults to subordinates might be part of military culture, but that doesnt mean it has to remain so. The little things add up. Improvement in these areas takes real effort, far more so than a weekly bus trip. It requires commanders to act a bit like parents, something they used to do but these days do not. My gandfather used to speak of "hats off" activities on the base he ran. Rank had no place during such things. He said he learned more about his people at the weekly "hats off" card game than he ever did while on duty. Those sort of back channels, without any risk of getting something on someone's record, are imho missing from base culture today. But to maintain such things you need stability of leadership. Today people move around so fast that commanders have trouble even keeping track of names.
bobbington 10y ago
When people don't have a purpose, they commit suicide. As America becomes increasingly godless, the facades that we put up on regular life come crashing down when in the raw reality of the battlefield. Add to that the fact that our judges treat soldiers like trash, imprisoning them for killing the enemy. It's no wonder that our soldiers commit suicide. People don't think anymore, too blind to see how they are destroying this country.
ryanmarsh 10y ago
I just got a notice on Facebook. Another brother lost his battle. I don't use Facebook except to every month or so check in on a group of guys I deployed with. It seems like one or two each year take their own life. This has been going on the last ten years. Many others have struggled but haven't committed suicide (yet, it pains me to say). After reading the article I still don't understand what's going on. I wonder if it has something more to do with society in general and how men in this demographic are received. I've heard almost all of my brothers say they feel rejected by society, or like an alien in their community. I feel/felt the same way.
- jimbert 10y ago
  I agree with you that there's a feeling of alienation from society. From my own experience, I felt a growing sense of isolation from the people that were closest to me. I feel that many coming out of the military are put at a disadvantage compared to their civilian counterparts. Coming home from deployment, I'd lost touch with many of my friends, had broken up with my long term girlfriend, and had scarce job opportunities. The military has made some efforts to better help reintegrate with the civilian world, but they all fall short because they have no particular expertise or influence on what happens outside of service. They can't help you much with finding a job or mending your relationships other than impersonal job assistance programs or a couple MWR trips with your family. I eventually found some success but my military service and its side effects were a hole that I had to dig myself out of with the help of my friends and family. I think that successful reintegration requires a strong support network. I'm fortunate to have strong family connections and a few friends that were there for me. I still reach out to some of those I served with to have coffee and just chat about life, though I'm ashamed to admit that I haven't been as good about it as the years have gone by. Good on you for continuing to reach out to your battle buddies -- I'm sure you're making a positive impact in each of their lives.
lebanon_tn 10y ago
An insightful article from a few years ago: https://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/20/us/marine-battalion-veterans-scarred-by-suicides-turn-to-one-another-for-help.html https://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/20/us/marine-battalion-veter...

85 points by curtis 10y ago

whb07 10y ago

Solid reporting and analysis. To further the stark difference in point of view from a veteran to civilian is a comic strip from a famous Marine illustrator: terminallance.com/2012/01/23/terminal-lance-174-breaking-news/

averagewall 10y ago
That's a weird mentality to think of a killer as a "dumbass" and a "huge dick" when your own job is to kill people. Does it matter if they're Americans or Iraqis? They're still people.

VLM 10y ago

Definitely written by someone not in, and not closely related to anyone on. There is a sense of puzzlement that help isn't sought. But in some MOS and some fields and some clearances seeking help is career suicide. Not all, but some. Not all soldiers are career and not all MOS and security clearances require no mental illness diag of course. So a soldier will only seek help if he's ready to pull the trigger on career suicide in which case doing the real thing is a microstep. You can tell people to seek help all you want to make you feel better about doing something, but if they know by example that their lifes work will be wiped out and they'll be unemployed in weeks if they actually follow thru and seek help, well, you do the math. Second gaping hole is some of the support REMF (I was a REMF so I can use that acronym "proudly") have higher sec clearances than some front line. Naturally that means some front line both see some interesting stuff and if they get help for what they saw they might not lose their job. And the REMF now a days might get blown up in a convoy or IED or whatever as bad as a front line, yet if they seek help its bye bye MOS. I have no personal experience with this, I was in during the early 90s but I kinda keep up with the times. There's an old saying about it being a rather permanent solution to a temporary problem. Young kids tend to have poor concept of time. A year in Korea is bad, but not worth offing yourself, unless you're a dumb kid, but then you don't want to speak ill of the dead, so ... As with most big messes there is no simple solution and the more you know, the more complicated it is...

sndean 10y ago
> So a soldier will only seek help if he's ready to pull the trigger on career suicide This matches my relative's experience. He only got help with PTSD once he was given the green light to retire from 20 years in TS clearance job. It's pretty frustrating, once you see how dramatically their life improves following a few months of seeing a psychologist. He could've gotten that help a decade ago.
- whb07 10y ago
  The point of the article is to point out that the incidences of suicide in the military isn't disproportionate to civilians. This is something that's being blown out of proportion by the media and in return Congress pushes down DoD to make this a bigger issue than what it really is. Furthermore, your relative is a grown adult who decided that he should stay the course and not see a therapist for his condition based on possible consequences on his career. Clearly this happens in every career where there are high rewards, in this case a life time pension(valued over $1mm). Well, shit guess what, he made to him what seems like the best choice. For reference, look at a surgeon who is getting the shakes on his right hand or the NFL player hiding his broken collarbone injury during his free agent try outs. Or for a more military reference: the young guy hiding his fracture on X bone during selection phase for Y job. (doctor's typical question: "why didnt you come to us sooner when you knew something was wrong", clearly has no idea the drive and motivation behind the young man)
  - nananonymous 10y ago
    I think the comments above are pointing out what appear to be perverse incentives surrounding seeking mental health resources. It raises the question of whether those incentives could be changed in a way that all parties would benefit.
  - coldtea 10y ago
    >The point of the article is to point out that the incidences of suicide in the military isn't disproportionate to civilians. Note that for this to be OK, we should expect to see the same number of incidences in the military as one expects to see in civilians. If we have a reason to expect lower suicide rates from military personnel (e.g. better health, less incidents of alcoholism/substance abuse, no joblessness, regular psychiatric evaluations, etc compared to the general population), then it's not OK.

anotheryou 10y ago

How to handle people that you know are suicidal, but refuse to undergo treatment? I once had this situation (luckily with a happy end), that I only knew the rough location (in another country) and tried to talk someone out of it over the course of about a week. I was very close to calling the police, but was afraid it would do more harm than good. The person I was dealing with was very rational and calm about it and would probably just convinced the police of beeing fine.

Kenji 10y ago
I think you handled the situation correctly. You can't do much. Just like you can't do much if a loved one is injured or sick and dying but they do not want to go to a doctor (this actually happened to a friend). It's very hard to get a handle on these situations because most 1st world countries have a strong concept of individual liberty. I am actually glad it is that way, but I also realize how awful those situations are. But frankly, I'd rather not erode liberty to better deal with such cases, I think the problem has to be attacked from another direction, i.e. not stigmatising mental health problems, more conversation, tolerance, education about mental health, etc.

gerdesj 10y ago

All I can do is listen here and maybe learn something.

davewasthere 10y ago

I think the article got it close that it's really to do with being: Male, Young, White. When I was with the firm, we had a spate of suicides on base over a short period of time. Enough for 'management' to implement an in-loco parentis type arrangement for the young, single servicemen (and women) who were housed on base in barracks. It meant great adventure trips away - and did help give some sort of support network for those posted away from families. A better option than just drinking in the bar, at least. There are help options available (career suicide or not), but if you're depressed/suicidal, it's actually quite difficult to reach out to those options. In a well-run workplace environment, I found the Sergeants (and up) to be both a wealth of knowledge/experience and most were quite actively involved in taking care of the well-being of us young skins.

sandworm101 10y ago
Ive seen similar attempts to compensate, to de-toxify a base by adding on new activities. Im not a fan. It is the easy solution. The harder option is to dig out the issues. Debt. Count the number of payday loan places and casinos near the base. Drugs and alcohol. Count the bars. Then turn to the attitudes of team leaders. Petty insults to subordinates might be part of military culture, but that doesnt mean it has to remain so. The little things add up. Improvement in these areas takes real effort, far more so than a weekly bus trip. It requires commanders to act a bit like parents, something they used to do but these days do not. My gandfather used to speak of "hats off" activities on the base he ran. Rank had no place during such things. He said he learned more about his people at the weekly "hats off" card game than he ever did while on duty. Those sort of back channels, without any risk of getting something on someone's record, are imho missing from base culture today. But to maintain such things you need stability of leadership. Today people move around so fast that commanders have trouble even keeping track of names.

bobbington 10y ago

When people don't have a purpose, they commit suicide. As America becomes increasingly godless, the facades that we put up on regular life come crashing down when in the raw reality of the battlefield. Add to that the fact that our judges treat soldiers like trash, imprisoning them for killing the enemy. It's no wonder that our soldiers commit suicide. People don't think anymore, too blind to see how they are destroying this country.

ryanmarsh 10y ago

I just got a notice on Facebook. Another brother lost his battle. I don't use Facebook except to every month or so check in on a group of guys I deployed with. It seems like one or two each year take their own life. This has been going on the last ten years. Many others have struggled but haven't committed suicide (yet, it pains me to say). After reading the article I still don't understand what's going on. I wonder if it has something more to do with society in general and how men in this demographic are received. I've heard almost all of my brothers say they feel rejected by society, or like an alien in their community. I feel/felt the same way.

jimbert 10y ago
I agree with you that there's a feeling of alienation from society. From my own experience, I felt a growing sense of isolation from the people that were closest to me. I feel that many coming out of the military are put at a disadvantage compared to their civilian counterparts. Coming home from deployment, I'd lost touch with many of my friends, had broken up with my long term girlfriend, and had scarce job opportunities. The military has made some efforts to better help reintegrate with the civilian world, but they all fall short because they have no particular expertise or influence on what happens outside of service. They can't help you much with finding a job or mending your relationships other than impersonal job assistance programs or a couple MWR trips with your family. I eventually found some success but my military service and its side effects were a hole that I had to dig myself out of with the help of my friends and family. I think that successful reintegration requires a strong support network. I'm fortunate to have strong family connections and a few friends that were there for me. I still reach out to some of those I served with to have coffee and just chat about life, though I'm ashamed to admit that I haven't been as good about it as the years have gone by. Good on you for continuing to reach out to your battle buddies -- I'm sure you're making a positive impact in each of their lives.

lebanon_tn 10y ago

An insightful article from a few years ago: https://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/20/us/marine-battalion-veterans-scarred-by-suicides-turn-to-one-another-for-help.html https://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/20/us/marine-battalion-veter...