4 ms·

Why is Mars' Moon Phobos Hollow?

32 points by twidlit 16y ago

Confusion 16y ago
No it isn't. There is no reason whatsoever to suppose Phobos isn't a natural phenomenon. On the Phobos blog, you can find a recent post (http://webservices.esa.int/blog/post/7/1085 http://webservices.esa.int/blog/post/7/1085), which says: [..] provide meaningful new constraints on the corresponding range of the body's porosity (30% ± 5%), provide a basis for improved interpretation of the internal structure. We conclude that the interior of Phobos likely contains large voids. When applied to various hypotheses bearing on the origin of Phobos, these results are inconsistent with the proposition that Phobos is a captured asteroid. In other words, the moon is pretty porous and asteroids aren't, so it isn't a captured asteroid. However, that is only one of three hypotheses. In a previous post (http://webservices.esa.int/blog/post/7/989 http://webservices.esa.int/blog/post/7/989) they state: The origin of Phobos is a mystery, in fact three scenarios are considered possible. The first is that the moon is a captured asteroid; the second is that it formed in-situ as Mars formed below it, and the third is that Phobos formed later than Mars, from debris flung into martian orbit when a large meteorite struck the Red Planet. Among other objectives, the Phobos flybys are designed to provide clues towards answering this question. So one of the three hypotheses has been ruled out. The other two are still candidates. There is no mention of any internal voids with inexplicably 'geometric' shapes
- NathanKP 16y ago
  I have a feeling that most of this article is outright sensationalism. Sadly I don't have a subscription to the scientific site so I can't read the whole paper, but so far I haven't found any other source talking about the "geometric rooms" inside Phobos. Phobos looks fairly normal on the outside, other than a few strange lines: http://dad2059.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/phobos-41410.jpg http://dad2059.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/phobos-41410.jpg The article is probably link bait.
- joevandyk 16y ago
  Ugh: "provide a basis for improved interpretation of the internal structure" I wish less people would use them fancy words. What's wrong with simple english?
sdurkin 16y ago
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
- techiferous 16y ago
  Or, extraordinary claims require a psychological need to believe. :)
- teilo 16y ago
  This is always assumed as an axiom. It is also wrong. Claims require sufficient evidence to prove them. Period. Labeling a claim as "extraordinary" does not in any way change the standard of proof for said claim. So far, no one has put forward anything even remotely approaching sufficient proof that Phobos is artificial.
stevejalim 16y ago
Couldn't the right-angles detected be crystalline in origin, rather than from Home Depot?
- jaybol 16y ago
  I don't believe that geometric shapes and structures existed before Home Depot but you know how dodgy aliens are always messing with time portals to bring lumber back to the future.
  - techiferous 16y ago
    Some natural geometric shapes: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1228844/These-stones-really-ARE-rolling-Mystery-Death-Valleys-eerie-moving-rocks.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1228844/Th... http://www.ironammonite.com/2009/12/surviving-cueva-de-los-cristales-giant.html http://www.ironammonite.com/2009/12/surviving-cueva-de-los-c...
    - waterlesscloud 16y ago
      And of course the hexagon atop Saturn. http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2009/12/saturn-hexagon/ http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2009/12/saturn-hexagon/
deleted 16y ago
[deleted]
ErrantX 16y ago
Someone has been reading "Mostly Harmless" again I think.
arethuza 16y ago
Have a read of the "source" material: http://www.enterprisemission.com/Phobos.html http://www.enterprisemission.com/Phobos.html It is even more bizarre than the original article. Of course, by Poe's law, either of these could be subtle parodies. (Although I suspect not).
- NathanKP 16y ago
  From the article: So yes, what you are staring at (probably, in shock at this point ...) is, in fact ... nothing less than what we've been saying all along ... since trying to educate the first Bush Administration on this data, in 1989 (see below): That Phobos is, in fact-- An "ancient ... ex terrestrial ... very battered ... 15-mile-long"-- Spaceship. That definitely isn't a scientific article. It sounds more like a conspiracy theory website.
  - mbenjaminsmith 16y ago
    It is. Richard Hoagland believes there is a secret space program interacting with/covering up an alien presence in our solar system. He's on Coast to Coast AM on a regular basis as their special space advisor.
    - mootothemax 16y ago
      He seems to have some interesting views. From his Wikipedia page: Hoagland has commented at great length[66][67][68] on the so-called Norway Spiral, an extraordinary display of light seen over much of northern Norway on 9 December 2009, caused by the partial failure of a Russian SLBM test flight. Hoagland draws special attention to the fact that this event occurred close to President Barack Obama's arrival in Norway to accept the Nobel Peace Prize. On 2–3 February 2010, on the Coast to Coast AM radio show,[69] Hoagland announced that the Russian SLBM had in fact been captured by Dark Forces intent on preventing mankind's exploration of outer space. These Dark Forces, he explained, were probably headed by Nazi officers who had escaped into space after World War II. To Hoagland, this was a sufficient explanation of President Obama's desire to cancel Project Constellation, since Obama had clearly accepted that any attempt to return to the Moon would be thwarted by the superior technology of the Nazis in space. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_C._Hoagland http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_C._Hoagland
nlindig 16y ago
...that's no moon Occam's razor wins again!
curtis 16y ago
The notion that Phobos might be hollow is not exactly new. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phobos_%28moon%29#.22Hollow_Phobos.22_suggestions http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phobos_%28moon%29#.22Hollow_Pho....
pdx 16y ago
I was unclear about how they determined that the internal cavities were large. I get the same density if I have a rock with 30% of it's interior carved out by phasers, or if I have volcanic style (porous) rock. Are their instruments sensitive enough to get a line graph of gravitational attraction as their sensors pass near the moon? If that were the case, you might be able to determine large voids vs porosity, but if they only get a single data point, than you wouldn't be able to.
benwr 16y ago
Anyone else read "The Monkeys Thought 'Twas All In Fun" by Orson Scott Card?
teilo 16y ago
They are using enterprisemission.com as a source? Seriously? What is Daily Galaxy, the Weekly World News of Astronomy? For those who don't know, Enterprise Mission is the outlet for all the paranoid schizoid ramblings of Richard C. Hoagland, aka Mr. Face on Mars.

32 points by twidlit 16y ago

No it isn't. There is no reason whatsoever to suppose Phobos isn't a natural phenomenon. On the Phobos blog, you can find a recent post (http://webservices.esa.int/blog/post/7/1085 http://webservices.esa.int/blog/post/7/1085), which says: [..] provide meaningful new constraints on the corresponding range of the body's porosity (30% ± 5%), provide a basis for improved interpretation of the internal structure. We conclude that the interior of Phobos likely contains large voids. When applied to various hypotheses bearing on the origin of Phobos, these results are inconsistent with the proposition that Phobos is a captured asteroid. In other words, the moon is pretty porous and asteroids aren't, so it isn't a captured asteroid. However, that is only one of three hypotheses. In a previous post (http://webservices.esa.int/blog/post/7/989 http://webservices.esa.int/blog/post/7/989) they state: The origin of Phobos is a mystery, in fact three scenarios are considered possible. The first is that the moon is a captured asteroid; the second is that it formed in-situ as Mars formed below it, and the third is that Phobos formed later than Mars, from debris flung into martian orbit when a large meteorite struck the Red Planet. Among other objectives, the Phobos flybys are designed to provide clues towards answering this question. So one of the three hypotheses has been ruled out. The other two are still candidates. There is no mention of any internal voids with inexplicably 'geometric' shapes

NathanKP 16y ago
I have a feeling that most of this article is outright sensationalism. Sadly I don't have a subscription to the scientific site so I can't read the whole paper, but so far I haven't found any other source talking about the "geometric rooms" inside Phobos. Phobos looks fairly normal on the outside, other than a few strange lines: http://dad2059.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/phobos-41410.jpg http://dad2059.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/phobos-41410.jpg The article is probably link bait.
joevandyk 16y ago
Ugh: "provide a basis for improved interpretation of the internal structure" I wish less people would use them fancy words. What's wrong with simple english?

sdurkin 16y ago

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

techiferous 16y ago
Or, extraordinary claims require a psychological need to believe. :)
teilo 16y ago
This is always assumed as an axiom. It is also wrong. Claims require sufficient evidence to prove them. Period. Labeling a claim as "extraordinary" does not in any way change the standard of proof for said claim. So far, no one has put forward anything even remotely approaching sufficient proof that Phobos is artificial.

stevejalim 16y ago

Couldn't the right-angles detected be crystalline in origin, rather than from Home Depot?

jaybol 16y ago
I don't believe that geometric shapes and structures existed before Home Depot but you know how dodgy aliens are always messing with time portals to bring lumber back to the future.
- techiferous 16y ago
  Some natural geometric shapes: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1228844/These-stones-really-ARE-rolling-Mystery-Death-Valleys-eerie-moving-rocks.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1228844/Th... http://www.ironammonite.com/2009/12/surviving-cueva-de-los-cristales-giant.html http://www.ironammonite.com/2009/12/surviving-cueva-de-los-c...
  - waterlesscloud 16y ago
    And of course the hexagon atop Saturn. http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2009/12/saturn-hexagon/ http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2009/12/saturn-hexagon/

deleted 16y ago

[deleted]

ErrantX 16y ago

Someone has been reading "Mostly Harmless" again I think.

arethuza 16y ago

Have a read of the "source" material: http://www.enterprisemission.com/Phobos.html http://www.enterprisemission.com/Phobos.html It is even more bizarre than the original article. Of course, by Poe's law, either of these could be subtle parodies. (Although I suspect not).

NathanKP 16y ago
From the article: So yes, what you are staring at (probably, in shock at this point ...) is, in fact ... nothing less than what we've been saying all along ... since trying to educate the first Bush Administration on this data, in 1989 (see below): That Phobos is, in fact-- An "ancient ... ex terrestrial ... very battered ... 15-mile-long"-- Spaceship. That definitely isn't a scientific article. It sounds more like a conspiracy theory website.
- mbenjaminsmith 16y ago
  It is. Richard Hoagland believes there is a secret space program interacting with/covering up an alien presence in our solar system. He's on Coast to Coast AM on a regular basis as their special space advisor.
  - mootothemax 16y ago
    He seems to have some interesting views. From his Wikipedia page: Hoagland has commented at great length[66][67][68] on the so-called Norway Spiral, an extraordinary display of light seen over much of northern Norway on 9 December 2009, caused by the partial failure of a Russian SLBM test flight. Hoagland draws special attention to the fact that this event occurred close to President Barack Obama's arrival in Norway to accept the Nobel Peace Prize. On 2–3 February 2010, on the Coast to Coast AM radio show,[69] Hoagland announced that the Russian SLBM had in fact been captured by Dark Forces intent on preventing mankind's exploration of outer space. These Dark Forces, he explained, were probably headed by Nazi officers who had escaped into space after World War II. To Hoagland, this was a sufficient explanation of President Obama's desire to cancel Project Constellation, since Obama had clearly accepted that any attempt to return to the Moon would be thwarted by the superior technology of the Nazis in space. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_C._Hoagland http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_C._Hoagland

nlindig 16y ago

...that's no moon Occam's razor wins again!

curtis 16y ago

The notion that Phobos might be hollow is not exactly new. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phobos_%28moon%29#.22Hollow_Phobos.22_suggestions http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phobos_%28moon%29#.22Hollow_Pho....

pdx 16y ago

I was unclear about how they determined that the internal cavities were large. I get the same density if I have a rock with 30% of it's interior carved out by phasers, or if I have volcanic style (porous) rock. Are their instruments sensitive enough to get a line graph of gravitational attraction as their sensors pass near the moon? If that were the case, you might be able to determine large voids vs porosity, but if they only get a single data point, than you wouldn't be able to.

benwr 16y ago

Anyone else read "The Monkeys Thought 'Twas All In Fun" by Orson Scott Card?

teilo 16y ago

They are using enterprisemission.com as a source? Seriously? What is Daily Galaxy, the Weekly World News of Astronomy? For those who don't know, Enterprise Mission is the outlet for all the paranoid schizoid ramblings of Richard C. Hoagland, aka Mr. Face on Mars.