8 ms·

>use as it doesn't force our users to upgrade to Windows 10 and opens the door for a single graphics API that could be used on all Windows 7, 8, 10 & Linux Fin

by hd4 10y ago

>use as it doesn't force our users to upgrade to Windows 10 and opens the door for a single graphics API that could be used on all Windows 7, 8, 10 & Linux Finally they're starting to get it.

dogma1138 10y ago
Considering that the mGPU and VR support in the latest release of Vulkan requires Windows 10 and WDDM I don't think even Kronos gets it anymore ;)
- throwaway91111 10y ago
  I don't use windows. What's wrong with windows 10?
  - dogma1138 10y ago
    Nothing, I use it on a daily basis.
  - Razengan 10y ago
    https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13903519 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13903519 for one.
  - yulaow 10y ago
    The dev are not directly against windows 10, but against forcing their users to upgrade to a new os only because Microsoft decides everytime to support latest directX versions only in their newest os version.
  - LoSboccacc 10y ago
    It was decent, even fine, until they started pushing advertisement aggressively. Yes even to pro users.
    - krautsourced 10y ago
      That took two clicks to disable. Hardly makes the entire OS bad. If I had anything to complain about Win 10 it's that they still haven't properly unified the control panels.
      - LoSboccacc 10y ago
        yeah, the exdplorer advertisement on top of chrome took another two click, the office advertisement another two, the edge is more secure popup, two clicks.. I see a pattern there, don't you?
      - JohnJamesRambo 10y ago
        You shouldn't have to do even two clicks to disable ads in an OS you purchased. The fact that people try to defend this is absurd.
        zuminator 10y ago
        I purchased a newspaper, it had ads - which I couldn't disable. I purchased a magazine, it had ads - couldn't disable. I purchased a book - an ad for another book in the back. I purchased a movie ticket - an eternity of commercials even after I arrived "late" to the show. I purchased a cable subscription - still scads of ads, no way to get rid of them. So taking ten seconds to deactivate ads in an OS isn't really the kind of outrageously onerous burden you're laying it out to be. I agree to the extent that it seems like a pointlessly minuscule revenue stream in comparison to the ill will that it generates. And it was deceitful to sneak the ads in after people had already upgraded from Windows 7 instead of making their intentions clear from the outset. Microsoft would probably generate more income with an option to permanently disable the ad experience (and telemetry) for a one-time fee the way Amazon does with their low-end Kindles.
        _jal 10y ago
        The difference I see is that it breaks previous expectations. Ads in media have a long history, and there's a bargain that people understand (even if they don't fully understand the details). Operating systems historically have not been like media. Perhaps this is the future (shudder), but pretending there has not been a difference doesn't get us anywhere. And it is jarring: compare it to one day, ads start appearing on your towels at home. Personally, OS ads and invasive telemetry are way, way too invasive for me. Never used Windows as more than a utility thing for specific apps, but I'll never use Win 10 without crippling the mothership comms, and I'm moving away from OS X as well, because of the increasing cloud-everything centricity and the neglected unix subsystem. Finally, this is probably a complaint specific to me and a not that many other people. I do systems engineering professionally. When OSes start doing things that I can't control and start communicating without explanations as to what, exactly, is going on for reasons that are not driven by my intent, I cannot trust the software. My machine, my environment, my rules. People always jump to the phone comparison here. My phones are rather locked down too, snd I'm not happy about the direction, but can do little about that.
  - EasyTiger_ 10y ago
    - They are presenting ad 'experiences' on the Start menu, lock-screen, notification area, taskbar and now the File Manager, too. This is happening even on Enterprise. - Windows 10 will automatically install games from the Windows Store which are not wanted such as Candy Crush - Extensive and opaque 'telemetry' being sent back to MS which cannot be completely turned off - Lack of control over windows updates These are my own personal reasons why I will never be installing such an anti-consumer OS.
    - arm 10y ago
      Yep, and if that wasn’t enough, they have the gall to charge consumers for the OS too! I mean, monetizing users by tracking their behaviour and showing them custom ads is bad enough (although somewhat understandable when the OS is free), but charging users for the privilege too (Windows 10 costs money¹)? Disgusting. ―――――― ¹ — https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/get-windows-10 https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/get-windows-10
    - naikrovek 10y ago
      - they are showing "suggested apps" in the start menu, which can be turned off. The others are OneDrive and Edge suggestions and can also be turned off. - those apps are installed at the time of installation and can be removed. If so, they are not reinstalled ever again. - telemetry. Scary. Every application you install does this. - MS found (via telemetry) that users don't like installing updates, and thus left themselves open to many vulnerabilities that antivirus systems don't even look for. So, MS has chosen to force users into a more secure paradigm. These are my personal responses why I don't mind windows 10 at all, and don't feel it to be anti-consumer at all.
      - swiley 10y ago
        >telemetry. Scary. Every application you install does this. I'm really quite sure the applications on my machine don't. Then again I only run things I have some way to compile myself.
        10y ago
- zamalek 10y ago
  I can't see VR being added to the game for a long time, there are tons of comfort issues (especially forced camera movement) right now.
  - sundvor 10y ago
    Yeah, something I find really disappointing as a platinum level backer is that it can't even do TrackIR ootb anymore. Whereas Elite Dangerous handles that with aplomb. Guess where I'm spending what precious little gaming time I have these days?
    - sundvor 10y ago
      Sorry that sounded ungrateful and came out like I had an entitlement because of the backing level. I may be just a bit disappointed it was dropped - however I trust that it'll be added back in due time. The RSI team is doing amazing work, and I keep checking in - really love how they've improved loading times, and the detail of the models etc is just amazing, however as someone who's gotten quite used to head tracking I find it very hard to play sims that don't support it. As such, I'm also a big Elite fan and now is a really good time to be playing that especially if an immersive experience is something you consider important as I do.
    - rurounijones 10y ago
      TrackIR support is in the next release (2.6.2)
      - sundvor 10y ago
        Ooooh!! Thanks. :)
  - wavefunction 10y ago
    The new item/use interface seems perfectly suited to VR "touch" controllers. And I think back a few years when people said we'd never be able to fly seamlessly from orbit down to the surface of a procedurally generated planet. I understand that it's healthy to be skeptical, especially when it comes to video games, but CIG has been accomplishing some remarkable things much sooner than anyone seemed to assume so I guess I'm optimistic about VR as sooner rather than later.
- DiThi 10y ago
  You mean VR optimizations that are not crucial. And I don't think the specification says it requires Win10, does it? It's an implementation issue.
  - dogma1138 10y ago
    WDDM 2.0 and LDA as a requirement that's windows 10.
    - wolfgke 10y ago
      WDDM 2.0: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Windows_Display_Driver_Model&oldid=763825491 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Windows_Display_D... LDA: https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/hardware/dn894177(v=vs.85).aspx https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/hardware/dn...
    - DiThi 10y ago
      I mean Vulkan specification and its extensions. By definition it can't require Windows 10 exclusive features. It may happen that the only implementations in existence today do have this requirement.
      - dogma1138 10y ago
        There are Kronos extensions that require Win32 (and many of those do not have other platform equivalent from dealing with unified memory, to DX11/12 integration and other features), Vulkans mGPU support in it's current form specifically mandates Windows 10 because it's based on how WDDM and Windows 10 allow you to link devices, so do some of the VR specific functions. Vulkan was a Camel before they introduces the new extensions road map, you know have KHR which are "official" cross vendor LTS extensions which can be still platform dependant (e.g. you can have win32 KHR extensions), then there are KHX extensions which are effectively a rapid deployment branch primarily sucking in vendor extensions that can be a good idea, then there are the vendor specific extensions. Now not only that it's a camel, it seems to fall back into the same tarpit that OpenGL had in which you could not guarantee compatibility between hardware vendors and platforms.
- Twin_Snakes 10y ago
  That's only true for NVidia and that's because they don't want to put the work in (They do plan to make it work on Linux though just not on pre WDDM2 Windows). There is absolutely nothing locking multiGPU support to windows 10 other than the willingness of IHVs to support it.
orbitur 10y ago
> as it doesn't force our users to upgrade to Windows 10 Why is this something to avoid?

by hd4 10y ago

>use as it doesn't force our users to upgrade to Windows 10 and opens the door for a single graphics API that could be used on all Windows 7, 8, 10 & Linux Finally they're starting to get it.

dogma1138 10y ago

Considering that the mGPU and VR support in the latest release of Vulkan requires Windows 10 and WDDM I don't think even Kronos gets it anymore ;)

throwaway91111 10y ago
I don't use windows. What's wrong with windows 10?
- dogma1138 10y ago
  Nothing, I use it on a daily basis.
- Razengan 10y ago
  https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13903519 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13903519 for one.
- yulaow 10y ago
  The dev are not directly against windows 10, but against forcing their users to upgrade to a new os only because Microsoft decides everytime to support latest directX versions only in their newest os version.
- LoSboccacc 10y ago
  It was decent, even fine, until they started pushing advertisement aggressively. Yes even to pro users.
  - krautsourced 10y ago
    That took two clicks to disable. Hardly makes the entire OS bad. If I had anything to complain about Win 10 it's that they still haven't properly unified the control panels.
    - LoSboccacc 10y ago
      yeah, the exdplorer advertisement on top of chrome took another two click, the office advertisement another two, the edge is more secure popup, two clicks.. I see a pattern there, don't you?
    - JohnJamesRambo 10y ago
      You shouldn't have to do even two clicks to disable ads in an OS you purchased. The fact that people try to defend this is absurd.
      - zuminator 10y ago
        I purchased a newspaper, it had ads - which I couldn't disable. I purchased a magazine, it had ads - couldn't disable. I purchased a book - an ad for another book in the back. I purchased a movie ticket - an eternity of commercials even after I arrived "late" to the show. I purchased a cable subscription - still scads of ads, no way to get rid of them. So taking ten seconds to deactivate ads in an OS isn't really the kind of outrageously onerous burden you're laying it out to be. I agree to the extent that it seems like a pointlessly minuscule revenue stream in comparison to the ill will that it generates. And it was deceitful to sneak the ads in after people had already upgraded from Windows 7 instead of making their intentions clear from the outset. Microsoft would probably generate more income with an option to permanently disable the ad experience (and telemetry) for a one-time fee the way Amazon does with their low-end Kindles.
        _jal 10y ago
        The difference I see is that it breaks previous expectations. Ads in media have a long history, and there's a bargain that people understand (even if they don't fully understand the details). Operating systems historically have not been like media. Perhaps this is the future (shudder), but pretending there has not been a difference doesn't get us anywhere. And it is jarring: compare it to one day, ads start appearing on your towels at home. Personally, OS ads and invasive telemetry are way, way too invasive for me. Never used Windows as more than a utility thing for specific apps, but I'll never use Win 10 without crippling the mothership comms, and I'm moving away from OS X as well, because of the increasing cloud-everything centricity and the neglected unix subsystem. Finally, this is probably a complaint specific to me and a not that many other people. I do systems engineering professionally. When OSes start doing things that I can't control and start communicating without explanations as to what, exactly, is going on for reasons that are not driven by my intent, I cannot trust the software. My machine, my environment, my rules. People always jump to the phone comparison here. My phones are rather locked down too, snd I'm not happy about the direction, but can do little about that.
- EasyTiger_ 10y ago
  - They are presenting ad 'experiences' on the Start menu, lock-screen, notification area, taskbar and now the File Manager, too. This is happening even on Enterprise. - Windows 10 will automatically install games from the Windows Store which are not wanted such as Candy Crush - Extensive and opaque 'telemetry' being sent back to MS which cannot be completely turned off - Lack of control over windows updates These are my own personal reasons why I will never be installing such an anti-consumer OS.
  - arm 10y ago
    Yep, and if that wasn’t enough, they have the gall to charge consumers for the OS too! I mean, monetizing users by tracking their behaviour and showing them custom ads is bad enough (although somewhat understandable when the OS is free), but charging users for the privilege too (Windows 10 costs money¹)? Disgusting. ―――――― ¹ — https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/get-windows-10 https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/get-windows-10
  - naikrovek 10y ago
    - they are showing "suggested apps" in the start menu, which can be turned off. The others are OneDrive and Edge suggestions and can also be turned off. - those apps are installed at the time of installation and can be removed. If so, they are not reinstalled ever again. - telemetry. Scary. Every application you install does this. - MS found (via telemetry) that users don't like installing updates, and thus left themselves open to many vulnerabilities that antivirus systems don't even look for. So, MS has chosen to force users into a more secure paradigm. These are my personal responses why I don't mind windows 10 at all, and don't feel it to be anti-consumer at all.
    - swiley 10y ago
      >telemetry. Scary. Every application you install does this. I'm really quite sure the applications on my machine don't. Then again I only run things I have some way to compile myself.
      - 10y ago
zamalek 10y ago
I can't see VR being added to the game for a long time, there are tons of comfort issues (especially forced camera movement) right now.
- sundvor 10y ago
  Yeah, something I find really disappointing as a platinum level backer is that it can't even do TrackIR ootb anymore. Whereas Elite Dangerous handles that with aplomb. Guess where I'm spending what precious little gaming time I have these days?
  - sundvor 10y ago
    Sorry that sounded ungrateful and came out like I had an entitlement because of the backing level. I may be just a bit disappointed it was dropped - however I trust that it'll be added back in due time. The RSI team is doing amazing work, and I keep checking in - really love how they've improved loading times, and the detail of the models etc is just amazing, however as someone who's gotten quite used to head tracking I find it very hard to play sims that don't support it. As such, I'm also a big Elite fan and now is a really good time to be playing that especially if an immersive experience is something you consider important as I do.
  - rurounijones 10y ago
    TrackIR support is in the next release (2.6.2)
    - sundvor 10y ago
      Ooooh!! Thanks. :)
- wavefunction 10y ago
  The new item/use interface seems perfectly suited to VR "touch" controllers. And I think back a few years when people said we'd never be able to fly seamlessly from orbit down to the surface of a procedurally generated planet. I understand that it's healthy to be skeptical, especially when it comes to video games, but CIG has been accomplishing some remarkable things much sooner than anyone seemed to assume so I guess I'm optimistic about VR as sooner rather than later.
DiThi 10y ago
You mean VR optimizations that are not crucial. And I don't think the specification says it requires Win10, does it? It's an implementation issue.
- dogma1138 10y ago
  WDDM 2.0 and LDA as a requirement that's windows 10.
  - wolfgke 10y ago
    WDDM 2.0: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Windows_Display_Driver_Model&oldid=763825491 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Windows_Display_D... LDA: https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/hardware/dn894177(v=vs.85).aspx https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/hardware/dn...
  - DiThi 10y ago
    I mean Vulkan specification and its extensions. By definition it can't require Windows 10 exclusive features. It may happen that the only implementations in existence today do have this requirement.
    - dogma1138 10y ago
      There are Kronos extensions that require Win32 (and many of those do not have other platform equivalent from dealing with unified memory, to DX11/12 integration and other features), Vulkans mGPU support in it's current form specifically mandates Windows 10 because it's based on how WDDM and Windows 10 allow you to link devices, so do some of the VR specific functions. Vulkan was a Camel before they introduces the new extensions road map, you know have KHR which are "official" cross vendor LTS extensions which can be still platform dependant (e.g. you can have win32 KHR extensions), then there are KHX extensions which are effectively a rapid deployment branch primarily sucking in vendor extensions that can be a good idea, then there are the vendor specific extensions. Now not only that it's a camel, it seems to fall back into the same tarpit that OpenGL had in which you could not guarantee compatibility between hardware vendors and platforms.
Twin_Snakes 10y ago
That's only true for NVidia and that's because they don't want to put the work in (They do plan to make it work on Linux though just not on pre WDDM2 Windows). There is absolutely nothing locking multiGPU support to windows 10 other than the willingness of IHVs to support it.

orbitur 10y ago

> as it doesn't force our users to upgrade to Windows 10 Why is this something to avoid?