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> And all the money and jobs you have there in Frankfurt and Munch is because rest of us in EU pay for it by buying cars and other crap. Your are welcome to bu

> And all the money and jobs you have there in Frankfurt and Munch is because rest of us in EU pay for it by buying cars and other crap. Your are welcome to build better cars. Tesla for example is trying to do it, lets see how we respond to that. This is the point of a market-based economy. It is not like we force them to buy stuff. > Without Berlin and rest of europe "your" city is a poor dead starving wasteland. These cities did well, when half of Berlin and most of todays Europe was behind a wall, so I think you are wrong here. > What you're doing is essentially trying to move the conversation away from what Berliners think is important - keeping their quality of life. They can keep there quality of live, I am just asking for a balanced budget. We are happy to pay our share for the additional expenses Berlin has, for being our capital, but other than that, please finance yourself.

izacus 10y ago
> Your are welcome to build better cars. Tesla for example is trying to do it, lets see how we respond to that. This is the point of a market-based economy. It is not like we force them to buy stuff. You're missing the point. Your own city leaders and government lobbies to sell more of that stuff. Without that you wouldn't be able to "finance yourself" - and that's my point. In your arrogance you're forgetting that subsidies are made to keep other germans and europeans buying your crap so you can "finance yourself". > They can keep there quality of live, I am just asking for a balanced budget. We are happy to pay our share for the additional expenses Berlin has, for being our capital, but other than that, please finance yourself. The whole point of existence of a nation-state is that it can improve overall quality of life and security because it redirects and pools financing around and creates environment on which your Frankfurt can "finance itself". Again, without those people that "can't finance themselves", you have little economy and customers to run your market-based economy to finance yourself.
- allendoerfer 10y ago
  > The whole point of existence of a nation-state is that it can improve overall quality of life and security because it redirects and pools financing around and creates environment on which your Frankfurt can "finance itself". Again, without those people that "can't finance themselves", you have little economy and customers to run your market-based economy to finance yourself. I think you are just plain wrong here. Frankfurt would do just fine without Berlin. Your points would make sense for the state of Hesse, where Frankfurt is the main source of income, while others have negative budget. But there the relationship you described, is indeed true: People are commuting to Frankfurt, that is why all the taxes are getting paid there. If not for the rural parts of Hesse, Frankfurt would look different. Berlin on the other hand does not really benefit Frankfurt at all, from a tax point of view. In the contrary: If Berlin wasn't there, maybe Frankfurt would be the capital of Germany. Germany is a nation-state, but also a federal nation-state. The whole point of federalism is, that each entity can decide, what quality of live means for them and what they want to do culturally. It also means, that these entities are responsible for collecting their own taxes and paying for their stuff. Thankfully, German states are soon constitutionally mandated to have a balanced budget, so this will end.
  - foepys 10y ago
    > In the contrary: If Berlin wasn't there, maybe Frankfurt would be the capital of Germany. Don't kid yourself. If it wasn't Berlin, it would be Bonn, Munich, Hamburg, or Cologne. Berlin has the disadvantage of being separated and isolated for decades while Frankfurt has been able to exist in a world with a free market and heavy investments by the allied forces for more than 70 years. To blame Berlin for not becoming as rich as Frankfurt in about 25 years time is just stupid and ignorant.
    - allendoerfer 10y ago
      >> In the contrary: If Berlin wasn't there, maybe Frankfurt would be the capital of Germany. > Don't kid yourself. If it wasn't Berlin, it would be Bonn, Munich, Hamburg, or Cologne. None of these cities have any history of being a German capital. To imagine Munich as the capital of Germany is outright funny, since they make it very clear, that they are the capital of the free state of Bavaria. Especially Bonn was chosen exactly for being not an important city, to show that it is a temporary solution. Frankfurt might have been able to keep the status as capital, because German democracy was basically founded in Frankfurt. It would have weakened the West in the cold war. Choosing it as a capital would have marked a historical endpoint, while the West bet on having that endpoint only after the reunification, which eventually happened [0]. Of course it is hard to argue about stuff like this, because if Berlin would not exist, maybe the wall would have gone through Frankfurt instead. > Berlin has the disadvantage of being separated and isolated for decades while Frankfurt has been able to exist in a world with a free market and heavy investments by the allied forces for more than 70 years. To blame Berlin for not becoming as rich as Frankfurt in about 25 years time is just stupid and ignorant. Nobody does that. There are plenty of other poor states in Germany, but Berlin combines it with it's unique attitude, which I sometimes find a bit provoking. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_of_Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_of_Germany
      - akie 10y ago
        Berlin is awesome as it is, and it's being changed by people who don't live in Berlin and who only want to make a quick buck. No wonder people are upset (I know I am).
- 92138791 10y ago
  Allendoerfer's point was that West Germany did well during the D-Mark times, so it is unfair to attribute Germany's economic success entirely to a low Euro. You have a point about Frankfurt's income sources of course, but they apply to any financial metropole.

izacus 10y ago

> Your are welcome to build better cars. Tesla for example is trying to do it, lets see how we respond to that. This is the point of a market-based economy. It is not like we force them to buy stuff. You're missing the point. Your own city leaders and government lobbies to sell more of that stuff. Without that you wouldn't be able to "finance yourself" - and that's my point. In your arrogance you're forgetting that subsidies are made to keep other germans and europeans buying your crap so you can "finance yourself". > They can keep there quality of live, I am just asking for a balanced budget. We are happy to pay our share for the additional expenses Berlin has, for being our capital, but other than that, please finance yourself. The whole point of existence of a nation-state is that it can improve overall quality of life and security because it redirects and pools financing around and creates environment on which your Frankfurt can "finance itself". Again, without those people that "can't finance themselves", you have little economy and customers to run your market-based economy to finance yourself.

allendoerfer 10y ago
> The whole point of existence of a nation-state is that it can improve overall quality of life and security because it redirects and pools financing around and creates environment on which your Frankfurt can "finance itself". Again, without those people that "can't finance themselves", you have little economy and customers to run your market-based economy to finance yourself. I think you are just plain wrong here. Frankfurt would do just fine without Berlin. Your points would make sense for the state of Hesse, where Frankfurt is the main source of income, while others have negative budget. But there the relationship you described, is indeed true: People are commuting to Frankfurt, that is why all the taxes are getting paid there. If not for the rural parts of Hesse, Frankfurt would look different. Berlin on the other hand does not really benefit Frankfurt at all, from a tax point of view. In the contrary: If Berlin wasn't there, maybe Frankfurt would be the capital of Germany. Germany is a nation-state, but also a federal nation-state. The whole point of federalism is, that each entity can decide, what quality of live means for them and what they want to do culturally. It also means, that these entities are responsible for collecting their own taxes and paying for their stuff. Thankfully, German states are soon constitutionally mandated to have a balanced budget, so this will end.
- foepys 10y ago
  > In the contrary: If Berlin wasn't there, maybe Frankfurt would be the capital of Germany. Don't kid yourself. If it wasn't Berlin, it would be Bonn, Munich, Hamburg, or Cologne. Berlin has the disadvantage of being separated and isolated for decades while Frankfurt has been able to exist in a world with a free market and heavy investments by the allied forces for more than 70 years. To blame Berlin for not becoming as rich as Frankfurt in about 25 years time is just stupid and ignorant.
  - allendoerfer 10y ago
    >> In the contrary: If Berlin wasn't there, maybe Frankfurt would be the capital of Germany. > Don't kid yourself. If it wasn't Berlin, it would be Bonn, Munich, Hamburg, or Cologne. None of these cities have any history of being a German capital. To imagine Munich as the capital of Germany is outright funny, since they make it very clear, that they are the capital of the free state of Bavaria. Especially Bonn was chosen exactly for being not an important city, to show that it is a temporary solution. Frankfurt might have been able to keep the status as capital, because German democracy was basically founded in Frankfurt. It would have weakened the West in the cold war. Choosing it as a capital would have marked a historical endpoint, while the West bet on having that endpoint only after the reunification, which eventually happened [0]. Of course it is hard to argue about stuff like this, because if Berlin would not exist, maybe the wall would have gone through Frankfurt instead. > Berlin has the disadvantage of being separated and isolated for decades while Frankfurt has been able to exist in a world with a free market and heavy investments by the allied forces for more than 70 years. To blame Berlin for not becoming as rich as Frankfurt in about 25 years time is just stupid and ignorant. Nobody does that. There are plenty of other poor states in Germany, but Berlin combines it with it's unique attitude, which I sometimes find a bit provoking. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_of_Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_of_Germany
    - akie 10y ago
      Berlin is awesome as it is, and it's being changed by people who don't live in Berlin and who only want to make a quick buck. No wonder people are upset (I know I am).
92138791 10y ago
Allendoerfer's point was that West Germany did well during the D-Mark times, so it is unfair to attribute Germany's economic success entirely to a low Euro. You have a point about Frankfurt's income sources of course, but they apply to any financial metropole.