7 ms·

Could the next person please source their comment. Kratom seems a bit controversial.

darpa_escapee 10y ago
There is no controversy unless one is fooled by Kratom peddlers' "non-addictive" rhetoric. I don't have the time to beyond Wikipedia, but there are sources cited in the article. A simple Google search would solve the problem here as well. The main active substances in Kratom are Mitragynine and 7-HO-Mitragynine. According to Wikipedia[0]: > Mitragynine is an indole-based opioid and the most abundant active alkaloid in the plant Mitragyna speciosa, commonly known as kratom[1] and biak-biak.[2] Dry kratom leaf contains roughly 1.2–2.1% mitragynine.[3] > Mitragynine itself acts primarily via μ-opioid receptors, though its oxidation product mitragynine pseudoindoxyl, acts as an even more potent and selective μ-opioid agonist but with less affinity for δ or κ receptors.[9][10] Another alkaloid with a major contribution to the μ-opioid activity of the kratom plant is the related compound 7-hydroxymitragynine, which, while present in the plant in much smaller quantities than mitragynine, is a much more potent μ-opioid partial agonist. Mu-opioid receptor agonism is how opioid drugs of abuse work. Kratom contains opioids that bind to mu-opioid receptors in the brain and opioids that bind to mu-opioid receptors in the brain cause opioid addiction. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitragynine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitragynine
- GordonS 10y ago
  It's a bit more nuanced than you state - kratom also contains mu-opioid antagonists. Furthermore, mitragynine and 7-OH-mitragynine are G-protein-biased agonists of the mu-opioid receptor - which also do not recruit β-arrestin following receptor activation. It is β-arrestin recruitment that is responsible for the main side effects of opiates - respiratory depression, constipation, histamine release and build up of tolerance (which is what leads to withdrawals upon cessation). This is a very big deal, and may well go some way to explain why for many kratom has no withdrawal symptoms or addictive properties.
  - darpa_escapee 10y ago
    > This is a very big deal, and may well go some way to explain why for many kratom has no withdrawal symptoms or addictive properties. Take Kratom every day for two weeks and get back to me. These are side effects you experience under Kratom intoxication: > respiratory depression, constipation, histamine release and build up of tolerance (which is what leads to withdrawals upon cessation) Each and every one of those. Anyway[0]: >RESULTS: More than half of the regular users (>6 month of use) developed severe Kratom dependence problems, while 45% showed a moderate Kratom dependence. Physical withdrawal symptoms commonly experienced include muscle spasms and pain, sleeping difficulty, watery eyes/nose, hot flashes, fever, decreased appetite, and diarrhoea. Psychological withdrawal symptoms commonly reported were restlessness, tension, anger, sadness, and nervousness. The average amount of the psychoactive compound, mitragynine, in a single dose of a Kratom drink was 79mg, suggesting an average daily intake of 276.5mg. Regular users who consumed ≥3 glasses Kratom per day, had higher odds of developing severe Kratom dependence, withdrawal symptoms, and inability to control Kratom craving. > CONCLUSIONS: The findings from this study show that regular Kratom use is associated with drug dependency, development of withdrawal symptoms, and craving. These symptoms become more severe with prolonged use and suggest a stronger control of the drug. [0] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24698080 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24698080
    - GordonS 10y ago
      > Take Kratom every day for two weeks and get back to me I've been taking it almost every day for over a year. There is no respiratory depression, and no build up of tolerance - the dose that was originally effective still is. I am not addicted; there is no compulsion to take it other than to reduce my pain. I also stop taking it every now and then, just to check if the condition I have is showing any signs of going away - I get a very mild cold-like feeling, nothing more. Honestly, when I've stopped caffeine before, that was harder.
      - darpa_escapee 10y ago
        We've had __very__ different experiences with Kratom, then. I was an active Kratom user for 2 years and was very addicted to it. Tolerance, cravings, nodding, respiratory depression, histamine response, constipation, the whole nine yards. I was also in your shoes and told myself the same things for a long time. I had quit a few times, for long periods of time, and told myself it wasn't that bad. But each time I quit, withdrawals got worse. It won't be a mild cold-like feeling forever. If Kratom use isn't negatively impacting your life, your dose isn't escalating and it works for you, then I'm genuinely glad that you've found something to manage your pain. My mom has been on low doses of hydrocodone for degenerative disk disease for decades now, that works for her as well. However, both are opioids and they carry the same risks all opioids do: opioid addiction. It would be unfair to those who are opioid and Kratom naive to pretend that addiction and all the fun facets of opioid abuse are not something inherent to Kratom. I bought into the "Kratom is safe and non-addictive" sales pitch as a teenager and suffered immensely for my naivety.
fapjacks 10y ago
The main problem is that the controversy involves a lot of anecdote. Critics can't prove they've actually not been consuming some dangerous adulterants because they aren't testing their supply (since testing is pretty expensive). Here's at least one paper discussing kratom: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22133323 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22133323

There is no controversy unless one is fooled by Kratom peddlers' "non-addictive" rhetoric. I don't have the time to beyond Wikipedia, but there are sources cited in the article. A simple Google search would solve the problem here as well. The main active substances in Kratom are Mitragynine and 7-HO-Mitragynine. According to Wikipedia[0]: > Mitragynine is an indole-based opioid and the most abundant active alkaloid in the plant Mitragyna speciosa, commonly known as kratom[1] and biak-biak.[2] Dry kratom leaf contains roughly 1.2–2.1% mitragynine.[3] > Mitragynine itself acts primarily via μ-opioid receptors, though its oxidation product mitragynine pseudoindoxyl, acts as an even more potent and selective μ-opioid agonist but with less affinity for δ or κ receptors.[9][10] Another alkaloid with a major contribution to the μ-opioid activity of the kratom plant is the related compound 7-hydroxymitragynine, which, while present in the plant in much smaller quantities than mitragynine, is a much more potent μ-opioid partial agonist. Mu-opioid receptor agonism is how opioid drugs of abuse work. Kratom contains opioids that bind to mu-opioid receptors in the brain and opioids that bind to mu-opioid receptors in the brain cause opioid addiction. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitragynine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitragynine

GordonS 10y ago
It's a bit more nuanced than you state - kratom also contains mu-opioid antagonists. Furthermore, mitragynine and 7-OH-mitragynine are G-protein-biased agonists of the mu-opioid receptor - which also do not recruit β-arrestin following receptor activation. It is β-arrestin recruitment that is responsible for the main side effects of opiates - respiratory depression, constipation, histamine release and build up of tolerance (which is what leads to withdrawals upon cessation). This is a very big deal, and may well go some way to explain why for many kratom has no withdrawal symptoms or addictive properties.
- darpa_escapee 10y ago
  > This is a very big deal, and may well go some way to explain why for many kratom has no withdrawal symptoms or addictive properties. Take Kratom every day for two weeks and get back to me. These are side effects you experience under Kratom intoxication: > respiratory depression, constipation, histamine release and build up of tolerance (which is what leads to withdrawals upon cessation) Each and every one of those. Anyway[0]: >RESULTS: More than half of the regular users (>6 month of use) developed severe Kratom dependence problems, while 45% showed a moderate Kratom dependence. Physical withdrawal symptoms commonly experienced include muscle spasms and pain, sleeping difficulty, watery eyes/nose, hot flashes, fever, decreased appetite, and diarrhoea. Psychological withdrawal symptoms commonly reported were restlessness, tension, anger, sadness, and nervousness. The average amount of the psychoactive compound, mitragynine, in a single dose of a Kratom drink was 79mg, suggesting an average daily intake of 276.5mg. Regular users who consumed ≥3 glasses Kratom per day, had higher odds of developing severe Kratom dependence, withdrawal symptoms, and inability to control Kratom craving. > CONCLUSIONS: The findings from this study show that regular Kratom use is associated with drug dependency, development of withdrawal symptoms, and craving. These symptoms become more severe with prolonged use and suggest a stronger control of the drug. [0] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24698080 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24698080
  - GordonS 10y ago
    > Take Kratom every day for two weeks and get back to me I've been taking it almost every day for over a year. There is no respiratory depression, and no build up of tolerance - the dose that was originally effective still is. I am not addicted; there is no compulsion to take it other than to reduce my pain. I also stop taking it every now and then, just to check if the condition I have is showing any signs of going away - I get a very mild cold-like feeling, nothing more. Honestly, when I've stopped caffeine before, that was harder.
    - darpa_escapee 10y ago
      We've had __very__ different experiences with Kratom, then. I was an active Kratom user for 2 years and was very addicted to it. Tolerance, cravings, nodding, respiratory depression, histamine response, constipation, the whole nine yards. I was also in your shoes and told myself the same things for a long time. I had quit a few times, for long periods of time, and told myself it wasn't that bad. But each time I quit, withdrawals got worse. It won't be a mild cold-like feeling forever. If Kratom use isn't negatively impacting your life, your dose isn't escalating and it works for you, then I'm genuinely glad that you've found something to manage your pain. My mom has been on low doses of hydrocodone for degenerative disk disease for decades now, that works for her as well. However, both are opioids and they carry the same risks all opioids do: opioid addiction. It would be unfair to those who are opioid and Kratom naive to pretend that addiction and all the fun facets of opioid abuse are not something inherent to Kratom. I bought into the "Kratom is safe and non-addictive" sales pitch as a teenager and suffered immensely for my naivety.

fapjacks 10y ago

The main problem is that the controversy involves a lot of anecdote. Critics can't prove they've actually not been consuming some dangerous adulterants because they aren't testing their supply (since testing is pretty expensive). Here's at least one paper discussing kratom: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22133323 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22133323