6 ms·

Absolutely. The cities have their own issues, but I don't know anyone in rural America that can't empathize with not having opportunity and being poor. Now whe

by jbhatab 10y ago

Absolutely. The cities have their own issues, but I don't know anyone in rural America that can't empathize with not having opportunity and being poor. Now when I talk to people in the city, I've heard so many things such as 'Can we all agree that America is disenfranchised by the electoral college?' or 'Isn't it crazy how trump supporters care about the borders so much?'. Where do you think the cheap heroin that is killing my friends is coming from? And the most frustrating part is I have to sit there completely silent while I think about my best friend who has died and come back to life multiple times from heroin. Why? Because I'll be labeled a trump supporter and potentially lose business. Even though my point has nothing to do with Trump at all and I'm only thinking about my friends. I can't think of a single scenario where brining up people in cities that have no opportunity is unacceptable. If anything it's the opposite, and people in rural America know it can get much more violent in the cities. They respect that fact.

karmelapple 10y ago
I'm a little confused - pointing out that drug problems exist, and people are hurting, in rural places will get you branded something negative? I'm from a relatively rural area, yet I do not feel uncomfortable talking about my experience growing up and what I know of where I spent my formative years.
- jbhatab 10y ago
  When I say that border security may help reduce cartels, I am labeled a Trump supporter and it does not go well in the Bay Area. You can look up the stats on where the heroin is coming from, and I've personally seen the heroin importation come through Manchester in New Hampshire and make its ways to smaller towns.
  - Sanddancer 10y ago
    The kind of border security that Trump is harping on won't stop the heroin epidemic. The cartels have already started shifting to things like drones for pickups and dropoffs [1], or to do more smuggling over the ocean [2]. However, Trump's plan is to slash funding for the Coast Guard, which will just shift the smugglers to using that route more [3]. It may temporarily decrease supply in New Hampshire, but only temporarily, until the supply chains adjust to compensate. [1] http://www.latimes.com/local/california/la-me-drone-drugs-20150813-story.html http://www.latimes.com/local/california/la-me-drone-drugs-20... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narco-submarine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narco-submarine [3] http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2017/03/16/us-coast-guard-objects-trumps-funding-cut/99274238/ http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2017/03/16/us-coast-guard...
    - karmelapple 10y ago
      Agreed on this - jbhatab, what do you propose for security? If you are telling your friends in the Bay Area that there are drug problems, then immediately following it up with "and everything the President is suggesting is the right way to go about doing it," then sure, you will be labeled a Trump supporter, since you are supporting his vision for what to do. If you're just saying there is a drug problem, though, and you have different ideas about how best to stem the influx of drugs, I still don't understand how you are getting labeled a Trump supporter. As sanddancer points out, simply building a wall does not seem like it would be a reasonable construction project nor accomplish much for the ultimate goals. Using a bunch of tech, from IR cameras on drones to other detection methods - including for underground tunnels - seems like a much more useful approach. And of course, not cutting the Coast Guard would be important to keep the flow of drugs as low as possible, too.
- hueving 10y ago
  You would be better off labeled a drug addict in the bay area than a Trump supporter. If you work in a tech company in the bay and dare to have any conservative thoughts, you better keep them to yourself or you seriously risk hampering your career due to "culture fit".
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - karmelapple 10y ago
    Understand. My question was about if pointing out concerns about drug problems gets you labeled as a Trump supporter, though. Sounds like yes?
tacomonstrous 10y ago
It's striking to me that you blame border security for your friend's death. Can you explain that further? It seems like the deeper issue here is lack of resources for drug rehab, and still deeper is the lack of economic opportunity that leads to drug use in the first place.
- jbhatab 10y ago
  Look up where the heroin is coming from. It is produced in Afghanistan and Mexico. With a large amount of heroin being imported through Mexico. Now I'm not sure a wall or border security is the answer, but the problem is that if I bring up the concept that border security is even a possible good idea, I'm labeled a trump supporter. So I have to remain silent and continue talking with them about how much trump is a womanizer and sessions is an idiot. I don't disagree with those statements, but I just care about my friends and I have seen the impact that foreign importation of drugs has had. The price of heroin has plummeted in my hometown over the last 10 years.
  - tacomonstrous 10y ago
    >Now I'm not sure a wall or border security is the answer, but the problem is that if I bring up the concept that border security is even a possible good idea, I'm labeled a trump supporter. That seems like a pretty knee jerk response from your friends (1), but, at least from your framing of the issue in these comments, I'm not convinced that you're presenting your arguments to them in good faith. Jumping to border security as a first line of response seems out of order to me. EDIT: Sorry, meant to respond to this: >I don't disagree with those statements, but I just care about my friends and I have seen the impact that foreign importation of drugs has had. The price of heroin has plummeted in my hometown over the last 10 years. I must say, I've never thought about affordability of drugs as a factor in their overuse, though I suppose it does make some sense. Still, though, do you believe that them being more expensive would alleviate the situation? Usually, junkies will find their fix one way or another, financial prudence be damned. I would have thought that community involvement and better rehab programs would prove more effective, but I must admit I do not have your first-hand knowledge. (1) By the way, either you are misrepresenting your friend's arguments or they are themselves quite misinformed. The issues about Trump and Sessions aren't that they are a womanizer and an idiot, respectively, but (at least on related counts) that the first admitted on record to having committed sexual assault, and that the other has a visible record of disdain for civil rights, bordering on outright bigotry.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
lazyasciiart 10y ago
> I don't know anyone in rural America that can't empathize with not having opportunity and being poor. I guess I've never understood the bootstrap advice as empathy, was it meant that way?
balls187 10y ago
I am sorry to hear about your friend. I've never had to deal with addiction, I can't imagine how tough that would be.
darpa_escapee 10y ago
> Where do you think the cheap heroin that is killing my friends is coming from? The fentanyl and fentanyl analogues that have spiked opioid overdoses in the past few years are coming via mail from China and Canada. Literally hundreds of people have died in the span of two nights from batches of heroin laced with cheap internet fentanyl derivatives. The people selling cheap internet fentanyl laced heroin aren't cartels or minority run gangs, they tend to be in the 16-28 demographic of white-bread drug dealers with access to a computer. The margins make sense (a dose of fentanyl can be as cheap as 1/100 of a penny when dealers pick it up in bulk vs the more expensive gang-sourced heroin) and attract people without many opportunities nor the education/ qualifications to make sure they can accurately sell people micrograms of a powder and not kill them. People like our friends might be or might have been. Different gangs and supply chains bring heroin into different areas of the country. Some areas still have Afghan heroin coming in, perhaps from the same fields we protected from destruction while we were over there. I lean left and come from a background very similar to yours. There is a difference between acknowledging the importance of ignored issues in these areas and saying "this is why Trump won".
- sndean 10y ago
  > The fentanyl and fentanyl analogues Yeah, I was trying to find a place to point out that there are different opioid epidemics going on [0]. Fentanyl and derivatives are part of the epidemic that's found in NH. [0] https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/12/13/where-opiates-killed-the-most-people-in-2015/?utm_term=.336bdb6a46be https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/12/13/where...
- jbhatab 10y ago
  My goal is to bring a sense of empathy to people that don't understand these issues due to lack of contact with people going through them. It's similar to a child who just needs to meet some black people who is less likely to become a racist. When I mention Trump, it's because it's almost like there is a sense of disbelief of why he won. It encapsulates the lack of empathy and perspective people have for rural America. Having people understand why people voted for him may at least spark a dialog towards understanding their issues and coming up with solutions.
throwawaybec 10y ago
A border wall isn't going to stop the flow of heroin, or even materially slow it down. It is security theater. There are already walls, with tunnels under them and stolen planes over them. We, as a nation, need to kill the demand. Rural areas do. not. empathize with lack of opportunity. My entire extended family is rural and they are convinced that minorities have unlimited opportunity at the expense of whites. If you can't think of a single scenario where it is unacceptable to bring up lack of opportunity in a city you are in an echo chamber. This isn't scientific, but I'm happy to argue anecdotes with anecdotes. Me? I know there are rural problems but I honestly stopped giving a shit 2 years into the Obama presidency. That is when I got sick of hearing racist comments and unintelligible bs about his and his policies. Did you inow that all hispanics get a $400/mo discount on insurance under obamacare? Sweet deal! Prior to that I was convinced we, as a nation, need to listen to each other. Now I just feel there is an immense sense of entitlement among rural whites. Because, you know, the government has an obligation to protect their obsolete manufacturing and coal mining jobs. But fuck entitelemebt programs. Do I think any of the above will go over well in public at the moment? Well, look at my account name.

by jbhatab 10y ago

karmelapple 10y ago

I'm a little confused - pointing out that drug problems exist, and people are hurting, in rural places will get you branded something negative? I'm from a relatively rural area, yet I do not feel uncomfortable talking about my experience growing up and what I know of where I spent my formative years.

jbhatab 10y ago
When I say that border security may help reduce cartels, I am labeled a Trump supporter and it does not go well in the Bay Area. You can look up the stats on where the heroin is coming from, and I've personally seen the heroin importation come through Manchester in New Hampshire and make its ways to smaller towns.
- Sanddancer 10y ago
  The kind of border security that Trump is harping on won't stop the heroin epidemic. The cartels have already started shifting to things like drones for pickups and dropoffs [1], or to do more smuggling over the ocean [2]. However, Trump's plan is to slash funding for the Coast Guard, which will just shift the smugglers to using that route more [3]. It may temporarily decrease supply in New Hampshire, but only temporarily, until the supply chains adjust to compensate. [1] http://www.latimes.com/local/california/la-me-drone-drugs-20150813-story.html http://www.latimes.com/local/california/la-me-drone-drugs-20... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narco-submarine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narco-submarine [3] http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2017/03/16/us-coast-guard-objects-trumps-funding-cut/99274238/ http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2017/03/16/us-coast-guard...
  - karmelapple 10y ago
    Agreed on this - jbhatab, what do you propose for security? If you are telling your friends in the Bay Area that there are drug problems, then immediately following it up with "and everything the President is suggesting is the right way to go about doing it," then sure, you will be labeled a Trump supporter, since you are supporting his vision for what to do. If you're just saying there is a drug problem, though, and you have different ideas about how best to stem the influx of drugs, I still don't understand how you are getting labeled a Trump supporter. As sanddancer points out, simply building a wall does not seem like it would be a reasonable construction project nor accomplish much for the ultimate goals. Using a bunch of tech, from IR cameras on drones to other detection methods - including for underground tunnels - seems like a much more useful approach. And of course, not cutting the Coast Guard would be important to keep the flow of drugs as low as possible, too.
hueving 10y ago
You would be better off labeled a drug addict in the bay area than a Trump supporter. If you work in a tech company in the bay and dare to have any conservative thoughts, you better keep them to yourself or you seriously risk hampering your career due to "culture fit".
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- karmelapple 10y ago
  Understand. My question was about if pointing out concerns about drug problems gets you labeled as a Trump supporter, though. Sounds like yes?

tacomonstrous 10y ago

It's striking to me that you blame border security for your friend's death. Can you explain that further? It seems like the deeper issue here is lack of resources for drug rehab, and still deeper is the lack of economic opportunity that leads to drug use in the first place.

jbhatab 10y ago
Look up where the heroin is coming from. It is produced in Afghanistan and Mexico. With a large amount of heroin being imported through Mexico. Now I'm not sure a wall or border security is the answer, but the problem is that if I bring up the concept that border security is even a possible good idea, I'm labeled a trump supporter. So I have to remain silent and continue talking with them about how much trump is a womanizer and sessions is an idiot. I don't disagree with those statements, but I just care about my friends and I have seen the impact that foreign importation of drugs has had. The price of heroin has plummeted in my hometown over the last 10 years.
- tacomonstrous 10y ago
  >Now I'm not sure a wall or border security is the answer, but the problem is that if I bring up the concept that border security is even a possible good idea, I'm labeled a trump supporter. That seems like a pretty knee jerk response from your friends (1), but, at least from your framing of the issue in these comments, I'm not convinced that you're presenting your arguments to them in good faith. Jumping to border security as a first line of response seems out of order to me. EDIT: Sorry, meant to respond to this: >I don't disagree with those statements, but I just care about my friends and I have seen the impact that foreign importation of drugs has had. The price of heroin has plummeted in my hometown over the last 10 years. I must say, I've never thought about affordability of drugs as a factor in their overuse, though I suppose it does make some sense. Still, though, do you believe that them being more expensive would alleviate the situation? Usually, junkies will find their fix one way or another, financial prudence be damned. I would have thought that community involvement and better rehab programs would prove more effective, but I must admit I do not have your first-hand knowledge. (1) By the way, either you are misrepresenting your friend's arguments or they are themselves quite misinformed. The issues about Trump and Sessions aren't that they are a womanizer and an idiot, respectively, but (at least on related counts) that the first admitted on record to having committed sexual assault, and that the other has a visible record of disdain for civil rights, bordering on outright bigotry.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

lazyasciiart 10y ago

> I don't know anyone in rural America that can't empathize with not having opportunity and being poor. I guess I've never understood the bootstrap advice as empathy, was it meant that way?

balls187 10y ago

I am sorry to hear about your friend. I've never had to deal with addiction, I can't imagine how tough that would be.

darpa_escapee 10y ago

> Where do you think the cheap heroin that is killing my friends is coming from? The fentanyl and fentanyl analogues that have spiked opioid overdoses in the past few years are coming via mail from China and Canada. Literally hundreds of people have died in the span of two nights from batches of heroin laced with cheap internet fentanyl derivatives. The people selling cheap internet fentanyl laced heroin aren't cartels or minority run gangs, they tend to be in the 16-28 demographic of white-bread drug dealers with access to a computer. The margins make sense (a dose of fentanyl can be as cheap as 1/100 of a penny when dealers pick it up in bulk vs the more expensive gang-sourced heroin) and attract people without many opportunities nor the education/ qualifications to make sure they can accurately sell people micrograms of a powder and not kill them. People like our friends might be or might have been. Different gangs and supply chains bring heroin into different areas of the country. Some areas still have Afghan heroin coming in, perhaps from the same fields we protected from destruction while we were over there. I lean left and come from a background very similar to yours. There is a difference between acknowledging the importance of ignored issues in these areas and saying "this is why Trump won".

sndean 10y ago
> The fentanyl and fentanyl analogues Yeah, I was trying to find a place to point out that there are different opioid epidemics going on [0]. Fentanyl and derivatives are part of the epidemic that's found in NH. [0] https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/12/13/where-opiates-killed-the-most-people-in-2015/?utm_term=.336bdb6a46be https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/12/13/where...
jbhatab 10y ago
My goal is to bring a sense of empathy to people that don't understand these issues due to lack of contact with people going through them. It's similar to a child who just needs to meet some black people who is less likely to become a racist. When I mention Trump, it's because it's almost like there is a sense of disbelief of why he won. It encapsulates the lack of empathy and perspective people have for rural America. Having people understand why people voted for him may at least spark a dialog towards understanding their issues and coming up with solutions.

throwawaybec 10y ago

A border wall isn't going to stop the flow of heroin, or even materially slow it down. It is security theater. There are already walls, with tunnels under them and stolen planes over them. We, as a nation, need to kill the demand. Rural areas do. not. empathize with lack of opportunity. My entire extended family is rural and they are convinced that minorities have unlimited opportunity at the expense of whites. If you can't think of a single scenario where it is unacceptable to bring up lack of opportunity in a city you are in an echo chamber. This isn't scientific, but I'm happy to argue anecdotes with anecdotes. Me? I know there are rural problems but I honestly stopped giving a shit 2 years into the Obama presidency. That is when I got sick of hearing racist comments and unintelligible bs about his and his policies. Did you inow that all hispanics get a $400/mo discount on insurance under obamacare? Sweet deal! Prior to that I was convinced we, as a nation, need to listen to each other. Now I just feel there is an immense sense of entitlement among rural whites. Because, you know, the government has an obligation to protect their obsolete manufacturing and coal mining jobs. But fuck entitelemebt programs. Do I think any of the above will go over well in public at the moment? Well, look at my account name.